Robin Collins And Atheist Peter Millican Discuss The Fine-Tuning Of The Universe For Life

By Wintery Knight

You might remember Peter Millican from the debate he had with William Lane Craig. I ranked that debate as one of the 3 best I have ever seen, along with the first Craig vs. Dacey debate and the second Craig vs. Sinnott-Armstrong debate.

Robin Collins And Atheist Peter Millican Discuss The Fine-Tuning Of The Universe For Life

Details:

Science has revealed that the fundamental constants and forces of the cosmos appear to be exquisitely fine-tuned to allow a universe in which life can develop. Is God the best explanation of the incredibly improbable odds of the universe we live in being a life-permitting one?

Robin Collins is a Christian philosopher and a leading advocate of the argument for God from cosmic design. Peter Millican is an atheist philosopher at Oxford University. They debate the issues.

From ‘Unbelievable?’ on ‘Premier Christian Radio,’ Saturday 19th March 2016.

The debate:

As usual, when the atheist is an expert, there is no snark or paraphrasing in the summary.

Summary

Brierley: What is the fine-tuning argument?

Collins: the fine-tuning is the structure of the universe is extremely precisely set to allow the existing of conscious, embodied agents who are capable of moral behavior. There are 3 kinds of fine-tuning: 1) the laws of nature (mathematical formulas), 2) the constants of physics (numbers that are plugged into the equations), 3) the initial conditions of the universe. The fine-tuning exists not just because there are lots of possibilities, but there is something special about the actual state of affairs that we see. Every set of laws, parameters and initial conditions is equally improbable, but the vast majority of permutations do not permit life. The possible explanations: theism or the multiverse.

Brierley: How improbable are the numbers?

Collins: Once case is the cosmological constant (dark energy density), with is 1 part in (10 raised to a 120th power). If larger, the universe expands too rapidly for galaxies and stars to form after the Big Bang. If smaller, the universe collapses in on itself before life could form. Another case is the initial distribution of mass energy to give us the low entropy we have that is necessary for life. The fine-tuning there is 1 part in (10 raised to the 10th power raised to the 123rd power).

Brierley: What do you think of the argument?

Millican: The argument is worth taking very seriously. I am a fan of the argument. The other arguments for God’s existence such as the ontological and cosmological arguments are very weak. But the fine-tuning argument has the right structure to deliver the conclusion that theists want. And it is different from the traditional design argument tended to focus on biological nature, which is not a strong argument. But the fine-tuning argument is strong because it precedes any sort of biological evolution. Although the design is present at the beginning of the universe, it is not visible until much later. The argument points to at least deism, and possibly theism. The argument is not based on ignorance; it is rooted in “the latest results from the frontiers of science” (his phrase).

Brierley: Is this the best argument from natural theology?

Collins: The cosmological argument makes theism viable intuitively, but there are some things that are puzzling, like the concept of the necessary being. But the fine-tuning argument is decisive.

Brierley: What’s are some objections to the fine-tuning argument?

Millican: The argument is based on recent physics, so we should be cautious because we maybe we will discover a natural explanation.

Brierley: Respond to that.

Collins: The cosmological constant has been around since 1980. But the direction that physics is moving in is that there are more constants and quantities being discovered that need to be fine-tuned, not less. Even if you had a grand unified theory, that would have to be the fine-tuning pushed into it.

(BREAK)

Millican: Since we have no experience of other laws and values from other universes, we don’t know whether these values can be other than they are. Psychologically, humans are prone to seeing purpose and patterns where there is none, so maybe that’s happening here.

Brierley: Respond to that.

Collins: It is possible to determine probabilities on a single universe case, for example using multiple ways of calculating Avogadro’s number all converging on the same number makes it more probable.

Millican: Yes, I willing to accept that these constants can take on other values, (“principle of indifference”). But maybe this principle be applied if the improbability were pushed up into the theory?

Collins: Even if you had a grand theory, selecting the grand theory from others would retain the improbability.

Brierley: What about the multiverse?

Millican: What if there are many, many different universes, and we happen to be in the one that is finely-tuned, then we should not be surprised to observe fine-tuning. Maybe a multiverse theory will be discovered in the future that would allow us to have these many universes with randomized constants and quantities. “I do think that it is a little bit of a promissory note.” I don’t think physics is pointing to this right now.

Brierley: Respond to that.

Collins: I agree it’s a promissory note. This is the strongest objection to the fine-tuning argument. But there are objections to the multiverse: 1) the fine-tuning is kicked back up to the multiverse generator has to be set just right to produce universes with different constants, 2) the multiverse is more likely to produce a small universe with Boltzmann brains that pop into existence and then out again, rather than a universe that contains conscious, embodied intelligent agents. I am working on a third response now that would show that the same constants that allow complex embodied life ALSO allow the universe to be discoverable. This would negate the observer-selection effect required by the multiverse objection.

Brierley: Respond to that.

Millican: I don’t see why the multiverse generator has to be fine-tuned since we don’t know what the multiverse generator is. I’m not impressed by the Boltzmann brains but won’t discuss. We should be cautious about inferring design because maybe this is a case where we are seeing purpose and design where there is none.

Brierley: Can you negate the discoverability of the universe by saying that it might be psychological?

Collins: These things are not psychological. The selected value for the cosmic microwave background radiation is fine-tuned for life and discoverability. It’s not merely a discoverability selection effect; it’s optimal for discoverability. If baryon-photon value were much smaller, we would have known that it was not optimal. So that judgment cannot be explained by

Millican: That’s a very interesting new twist.

Brierley: Give us your best objection.

Millican: I have two. 1) Even if you admit to the fine-tuning, this doesn’t show a being who is omnipotent and omniscient. What the fine-tuning shows is that the designer is doing the best it can given the constraints from nature. If I were God, I would not have made the universe so big, and I wouldn’t have made it last 14 billion years, just to make one small area that supports life. An all-powerful God would have made the universe much smaller, and much younger. 2) The fine-tuning allows life to exist in other solar systems in other galaxies. What does this alien life elsewhere mean for traditional Christian theology? The existence of other alien civilizations argues against the truth of any one religion.

Brierley: Respond to those.

Collins: First objection: with a finite Creator, you run into the problem of having to push the design of that creature up one level, so you don’t really solve the fine-tuning problem. An unlimited being (non-material, not composed of parts) does not require fine-tuning. The fine-tuning is more compatible with theism than atheism. Second objection: I actually do think that it is likely that are other universes, and life in other galaxies and stars, and the doctrine of the Incarnation is easily adaptable to that because God can take on multiple natures to appear to different alien civilizations.

Other resources (from WK)

If you liked this discussion, be sure and check out a full-length lecture by Robin Collins on the fine-tuning, and a shorter lecture on his very latest work. And also this the Common Sense Atheism podcast, featuring cosmologist Luke Barnes, who answers about a dozen objections to the fine-tuning argument.

 


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84 replies
  1. jcb says:

    RC and PM Fine Tuning
    ROBIN COLLINS AND ATHEIST PETER MILLICAN DISCUSS THE FINE-TUNING OF THE UNIVERSE FOR LIFE
    https://crossexamined.org/robin-collins-and-atheist-peter-millican-discuss-the-fine-tuning-of-the-universe-for-life/
    “Science has revealed that the fundamental constants and forces of the cosmos appear to be exquisitely fine-tuned to allow a universe in which life can develop.” (F: if “fine tuned” means “chosen”)
    The odds of the universe we live in being a life permitting one are high, if we calculate them today (T)
    The odds of the universe we live in permitting life, when calculated 15 billion years ago, are low (T)
    God best explains (?) (how a low probability became a reality)? (F)
    “the structure of the universe is extremely precisely set to allow the existing of conscious, embodied agents who are capable of moral behavior.” (F: if “set” means “chosen”, T otherwise)
    If the universe were different a billion years ago, we humans would probably not be alive (T)
    There are only 2 explanations for why life now exists/why the initial constants are what they are (F)
    Those only explanations are theism or the multiverse (F)
    The other arguments for God’s existence (the ontological and cosmological) are very weak. (T)
    The Fine tuning argument proves God (F)
    The fine-tuning argument is strong because it precedes any sort of biological evolution. (F)
    Design is present at the beginning of the universe (F: if “design” means intentionally “designed”)
    The argument points to at least deism, and possibly theism. (F: It points to something ism)
    The fine-tuning argument is decisive. (F)
    We might discover other universes (T), but we haven’t yet (T)
    If we don’t find other universes, then God probably caused ours (F)
    “The selected value for the cosmic microwave background radiation is fine-tuned for life and discoverability.” (F: nothing shows that the radiation value is “selected”)
    Even if there is a designer, it doesn’t follow that it is all knowing and all powerful (T)
    “What the fine-tuning shows is that the designer is doing the best it can given the constraints from nature.” (F: We don’t know what its “best” is, whether it could do more, otherwise, etc.)
    There is an “unlimited” being. (F)
    Fine Tuning (the constants) is more compatible with theism than atheism (F)
    God might appear to aliens (T).
    God probably does, has, or will (F)

    If you disagree with any of my assessments, make the case and show that I’m mistaken. For example, Prove that God probably has appeared to aliens (if you think he has).

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      This is so silly, JCB because you want to explain everything from a position of unbelief when unbelief is sin to a Christian.

      So you keep coming on this board trying to get Christian’s to rubber stamp your unbelief when they don’t share your perspective.

      God’s focus in the Bible isn’t on the Creation. His focus is on people so why don’t you try establishing whether or not sin exists in people first.

      Salvation is given to redeem people.

      So why do you want to go back and unravel salvation for others?

      Start dealing with the reality of sin right where you are and accept Jesus’ offer.

      Stop taking your own salvation problem out on people and start dealing with it subjectively.

      The Bible is the mirror in which God lets people see sin then the cure to it.

      I can’t believe you are so willing to let the social disease of sin prevail so you can validate your own skepticism.

      Evil is all around because of the sin nature of man and being skeptical of evil does not help people identify it and personally deal with it.

      Just like treating a disease the human race needs the Great Physician to help them deal with sin.
      Sin is a dreadful disease and you do not bury your head in the sand and refuse to deal with a life destroying disease.

      Of course, some people are more self deceptive than others and let their disease “sin” off the hook through false rationalizations.

      So be sure to examine your own sin motives for doing that and also which false idols you are serving.

      Sin has terrible consequences in this world because we reap what we sow and if you keep getting distracted by arguing all you really did was avoid the self examination and seeking the cure.

      Have a blessed day, JCB!

      We are all sinners but we don’t all let our own self deceptive unbelief deny the reality of sin that everyone commits in one form or another even if it is only in our own hearts.

      Disbelief is the most virulent form of sin and you are over here almost every day trying to stumble people and communicate it to them.

      Bible verses on disbelief:

      Disbelief

      2 Timothy 3:7 ESV / 20 helpful votes

      Always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

      2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV / 18 helpful votes

      For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

      Romans 8:7 ESV / 18 helpful votes

      For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

      Mark 9:24 ESV / 17 helpful votes

      Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

      2 Timothy 3:1-4 ESV / 13 helpful votes

      But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

      Romans 10:17 ESV / 13 helpful votes

      So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

      Ephesians 6:11 ESV / 11 helpful votes

      Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

      2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV / 11 helpful votes

      Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

      2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 ESV / 10 helpful votes

      The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

      Luke 11:28 ESV / 10 helpful votes

      But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

      Luke 1:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes

      Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us,

      Psalm 33:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes

      Shout for joy in the Lord, O you righteous! Praise befits the upright.

      Genesis 6:5 ESV / 9 helpful votes

      The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

      2 Peter 3:3-4 ESV / 8 helpful votes

      Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

      Psalm 14:1 ESV / 8 helpful votes

      To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

      Romans 1:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes

      Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

      1 Corinthians 1:21 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

      Romans 1:26-27 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

      Romans 1:24-27 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

      Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      “If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

      Deuteronomy 8:11-18 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      “Take care lest you forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commandments and his rules and his statutes, which I command you today, lest, when you have eaten and are full and have built good houses and live in them, and when your herds and flocks multiply and your silver and gold is multiplied and all that you have is multiplied, then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, who led you through the great and terrifying wilderness, with its fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water, who brought you water out of the flinty rock, …

      Numbers 23:19 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

      Genesis 19:1-13 ESV / 6 helpful votes

      The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” …

      Revelation 22:18 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,

      2 Peter 1:21 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

      Acts 17:11 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

      Luke 18:8 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

      Matthew 24:37-39 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

      Psalm 119:1-176 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! …

      Exodus 24:7 ESV / 5 helpful votes

      Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.”

      2 Timothy 3:16 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

      2 Thessalonians 2:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

      1 Thessalonians 5:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

      1 Corinthians 6:11 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      John 17:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

      Luke 4:4 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”

      Psalm 22:1-10 ESV / 4 helpful votes

      To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. …

      Leviticus 18:22 ESV / 2 helpful votes

      You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

      These arguments are not doing you or anyone a favor JCB if they cause anyone to go light on their sin or the sin of others.

      Sin is a cancerous leprosy and should be wiped out.

      That is why Jesus exhorted people to never doubt him.

      Have a blessed day! And I hope you start to put yourself to the test more and stop doubting God. God is your friend. Sin is your enemy.

      Reply
      • jcb says:

        So, as usual, it looks like Susan has said a lot of nothing. Nothing you’ve said there Susan seems to show that anything I said above is false. So you’ve just wasted a lot of time doing nothing, it seems.
        If you think I’ve said something that is false, say CLEARLY what it is, and what shows it to be false.
        Responding with, “But the Bible disagrees with you” isn’t evidence that what I’ve said is false.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          I have nothing to add.

          God is the Great Scientist, the Great Physician and the Great Psychiatrist and He says sin exists.

          He sent Jesus to deal with our sins.

          You have not submitted to Jesus to deal with your sins so burden of proof is on you to disprove sin.

          I am already sure you cannot prove it to my satisfaction though so I won’t send you on a goose change.

          Sin is observable in all people in every generation and I don’t care about your arguments.

          I am simply happy to submit my sins to Jesus for forgiveness.

          I am a realist. I realistically allow the only person in the universe who can get me out of a sin mess created before I was born to exonerate and extract me from it.

          Are you really so foolhardy as to meddle with other people’s heart motives in seeking help with their sins JCB?

          Then you need to examine what motivates you to do that.

          You are not making the world a better or safer place by letting evil heart motives co-exist in people.

          Reply
          • jcb says:

            You confirmed the worst. Nothing you said showed that anything I said above is false.
            I am making the world a better place (for those interested in the truth) by continually pointing out falsehoods like the ones you regularly make.
            Again (!), feel free to (begin to) support your problematic claims (I know, there are a lot of them) with evidence.

  2. Susan says:

    (Rom 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

    Why do all fall short?

    Because of the spiritual disease: sin. It corrupts the human soul like a computer virus corrupting a computer. Something must exorcise the virus or else.

    What good does disbelief do one in fighting a spiritual diagnosis from God about the human condition.

    Disbelief =’s denial and denial means you won’t seek God to solve your spiritual health issue.

    So you argue instead of seeking spiritual health because you are blind and refuse to listen to God’s explanation just like a person rejecting a doctor’s diagnosis that he doesn’t like.

    Well do you want to be spiritually whole or not?

    Really does everyone in the world have to master the higher sciences and refute you before you will come to terms with your own psycho-spiritual disease?

    I have to risk getting your social disease to save you when you won’t even cooperate a tiny bit with God?

    You guys had better grow up and start taking responsibility for yourselves and examine your own sins and idols and turn them over to God to deal with.

    I am sick and tired of the spiritually sickest people rocking me with insults while they refuse to deal with their own sin.

    Does that make sense.

    Denial of sin which is everywhere is more delusional than faith which Dawkins calls a mind virus.

    Dawkins has the delusion not Christians. We are the ones acknowledging that the evil reality of sin exists and self determined to let God help us with it.

    Dawkins is the deluded one who refuses to face reality but likes to waste a lot of people’s time so they can get spiritually sicker while they dabble in self prententious arguments.

    Do you want eternal perfect life or don’t you.

    What is do great about your sin that makes you act evilly that you would turn doubt an offer like that from God.

    Sin is demonstrable.

    Go find the evidence for it or admit you like your delusions and stop arguing about religion.

    This is your life. Are you going to act responsibly and own it or not

    Reply
  3. Susan says:

    Hebrews 3:15, NLT
    Remember what it says: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled.”

    Reply
  4. Susan Tan says:

    Apologetics is the place where some of God’s people come to reason with people who refuse to admit their own sinfulness and have their own sin dealt with.

    These unrepentant sinners try to deceive people into accepting their rationalizations while dodging and denying the sin that God proves exists in the Bible.

    Sin is unmistakeable and is provable so instead of telling unbelievers how to deal with it we let them engage in self deception and change the subject to origins.

    God’s case for sin is stronger than the one self deceptive unbelievers make on origins.

    Sin is a palpable reality that everyone either engages in or experiences from others’ actions.

    So don’t humor the unbelievers and skeptics on religion. Tell them the truth. Sin is undeniable and why should anyone let sin exist to play mind games with someone else who lacks the good judgment to cooperate with God to lessen it’s effects.

    These unbelievers are not intellectually superior to a believer. Some of them actively engage in denying sin exists to their own and other people’s detriment. Evil ideas are communicable and rebellion can be learned as many revolutionary groups throughout history demonstrate.

    People ARE the targets of other people’s sin sometimes.

    So stop being a target and tell these people: God’s case for the existence of sin is irrefutable.

    You cannot control these people’s attempts to escape the truth by denial but you can stop tolerating them promoting public disinformation that hurt people and encourage them not to deal appropriately with sin.

    Remember sin in human nature is irrefutable.

    People prove God’s claim on this everyday.

    Are we really so weak minded as to allow people to derail social progress and the curing of sin by indulging their self sabotaging ideas?

    The truth is the truth because it does not tolerate subterfuge or being sabotaged.

    Reply
  5. Bryan says:

    Interviewer: “Have you ever asked God for forgiveness?”

    Trump: [Long, rambling answer about going to church and Norman Vincent Peale]

    Interviewer: “But have you ever asked God for forgiveness?”

    Trump: (pause) “I’m not sure I have…”

    And 81% of you voted for this guy. And then you have the audacity to lecture the rest of us about “sin” ?

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      Red herring much?

      Sin is God’s provable finding so why swap His claims about us for origins or politics? That is how you stay stuck in sin.

      If you let people control you with red herrings then you miss the point.

      I expect a politician to be dirty. Due to the sin nature of people that is almost a given.

      How does anyone stop another person from misrepresenting himself?

      You should watch applying the tar brush of one person’s sins to another person or group.

      You have enough of your own to answer for most likely without casting stones.

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Quite frankly I have ZERO clue how you cam to the conclusion that your comment has anything at all to do woth the Fine Tuning Debate. Were you possibly out in the sun too long today? Or perhaps you had one too many beers at the pool? Well fortunately for you the moderators here are pretty forgiving.
      .
      Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Christ’s objective on the Cross was to destroy sin not prove fine tuning to dissimulators.

        Stop playing intellectual games with people determined not to deal with their sin.

        Sin is irrefutable.

        The burden of proof is on the unbeliever to prove it does not exist.

        But they can’t disprove it because history and everyday human observation of human activities and genetics confirm it exists.

        Reply
  6. Bryan says:

    Red herring? Because I’m exposing your religious CULT for what it really is?

    It really stings to point out how you holy and righteous ones, when given a choice of Christians like Cruz, Huckabee and Santorum happily chose one of the most vulgar, profane and adulterous men available.

    After years of claiming to want “godly men to govern us” now it’s “well, we don’t want a preacher in the Whitehouse, we want a tough guy”.

    I have no doubt that you, like Mark, want to run away from this Evangelical disaster. If I were in your position I’d do everything I could to avoid a political discussion. It exposes your Evangelical cult for the hypocritical mess it really is.

    But the facts are that people like the Reverands Falwell, Robertson, Bakker, Dobson and a host of others have tied your brand of Christianity to the the Republican Party, Fox News and far right connservatism.

    Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Good luck running away from 35 years of “GOP Christianity”!

    (And thanks for not answering me with a 20,000 character word salad)

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Because I’m exposing your religious CULT for what it really is?”
      .
      Christianity is a cult? You are a very seriously deluded individual.
      .
      Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter.

      Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          You have NO clue as to what you are even speaking about. You have confused politics with THE TRUTH to your own confusion.
          .
          John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

          Reply
    • Susan says:

      You are engaging in stereotyping.

      Voting is an individual right and many Christians are independents with no party affiliation at all.

      I don’t follow Falwell, Robertson or Bakker and never have and have only heard Dobson once or twice on the radio.

      You are guilty of prejudice against Christians and just falsely stereotyped me above.

      I know unbelievers who have voted for Trump. I had one encourage me to vote for him.

      You are deliberately trying to derail a blog dedicated to Christianity by bringing up topics that should be addressed on a politics blog or forum not here.

      All you are doing is refusing to deal with your sin through the obfuscation of focusing on peripheral issues.

      If you refuse to locate and acknowledge the evidence for sin then you are in denial.

      I don’t fall for political rants.

      Being saved from sin and being born again is the critical issue in every generation but a lot of people don’t think critically enough to realize that and cooperate with Jesus.

      I can’t help it that you refuse to understand God and take Jesus and sin seriously.

      Your political ranting is a sign to me that you are willing to allow sin to control you and that allows you to invent wrongs and project motives on people that they may not hold.

      You should have examined yourself and got your heart right with God but you may be too far gone into self deceptive sin and mentally digesting a steady diet of lies and twisted half truths to do that now.

      Reply
      • Bryan says:

        Over 80% of Evangelical Christians. Over 80%.

        They went for Trump.

        Like it or not, that defines Christianity in America for most people.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          It does not define anyone. They may have just picked the lesser evil. They did not like or trust Hillary.

          The political reality is that the US is a two party system and without one of the two parties nominations you have no chance of winning.

          Many people liked Perot or Ron Paul in the past but since they were not in one of the two parties voting for them was a waste.

          Sometimes you have to pick the lesser evil.

          Obama was a liar, too. He had dual citizenship. He had to have held Indonesian citizenship when he lived with his Muslim stepfather to be able to attend elementary school. So the Democratic National Party buried that fact because a president by Constitutional requirements cannot be a citizen of any other country ever and run for the American presidency.

          The American party system is dirty period.

          Why the electorate ballot holdup in Florida a state controlled by Jeb Bush when George Bush Jr ran against Al Gore?

          Because of dirty politics.

          Obama played dirty, too.

          He sent voting officials into nursing homes to sign up voters who had dementia and were too senile to know what they were doing,

          The PACs and money politics have eviscerated America for a long, long time now.

          The whole American system needs a radical over haul and you want to belly ache over Trump.

          Trump did not make America the way it is.
          He is only the lesser of two evils.

          Reply
          • Andy Ryan says:

            “Obama was a liar, too. He had dual citizenship. He had to have held Indonesian citizenship when he lived with his Muslim stepfather to be able to attend elementary school”
            .
            Just responding to point out Susan is lying again – whether by aim or because she’s credulously repeating propaganda as she does with her religious claims, I don’t know.
            Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship automatically on his 23rd birthday, so he wasn’t a citizen of another country when he ran for the American presidency. I can’t find a source for her other claim about sending voting officials into nursing homes. Perhaps she read it on the same conspiracy websites that accuse survivors of gun massacres of being crisis actors.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            So can someone tell me when they moved Kenya to the middle of the Pacific or moved Indonesia to Africa?
            .
            Goodness the lack of reading comprehension from the Brits these days. No wonder they have all the issues they have.

          • Andy Ryan says:

            “So can someone tell me when they moved Kenya to the middle of the Pacific or moved Indonesia to Africa?”
            .
            You’re not doing much to correct the idea people have that Americans know nothing about geography. Back to school, Heavlin, or get yourself a decent atlas!

          • toby says:

            Andy, Mark clearly is trying to twist the conversation around so he can talk about how he knows the world is flat.

          • Andy Ryan says:

            Ah I see. You’d think Americans would avoid arguments involving pointing the finger at what a mess people’s countries are in. Clue: If your government is putting children as young as eight months in cages, worry about your own back yard.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            Well since both of you are to thick to re-read Susan’s post above I will quote the pertinent part here:
            .
            “Susan: He had to have held Indonesian citizenship when he lived with his Muslim stepfather to be able to attend elementary school.”
            .
            Andy’s reply: “Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship automatically on his 23rd birthday, so he wasn’t a citizen of another country when he ran for the American presidency.”
            .
            Andy replied again: “You’re not doing much to correct the idea people have that Americans know nothing about geography. Back to school, Heavlin, or get yourself a decent atlas!”
            .
            Speak for yourself. Or did you FAIL yet again to comprehend my question?
            .
            As for Toby. His previous posts on this forum speak for themselves.

          • Andy Ryan says:

            Oh right, I wrote Kenyan by mistake instead of Indonesian. Just like you wrote “Well since both of you are to thick” when you should have written “too thick” (now THERE’s an irony) and just like Susan had to correct herself three times in this thread in subsequent posts (1. “Oops meant to write that disqualifies him as a presidential candidate” and 2. “Oops ‘everything I say ‘not way'” and 3. “Oops. 4 years not six in Indonesia.”). There’s no edit function on posts.
            .
            So does the correction invalidate my point? No. Apologies for saying Kenyan rather than Indonesian, but no, Obama automatically lost his dual citizenship at 23, like I said, meaning, yes, Susan is just repeating a debunked conspiracy theory. And yes, your president is still having dozens of kids put in cages every day.

      • Bryan says:

        I found this article today. Perhaps before trying to take the mote from my eye you might want to remove the beam from yours and from those in your religion:

        “The moral corruption apparent in the largest segment of American Protestantism began in the ’80s when Jerry Falwell Sr.’s Moral Majority and Ralph Reed’s Christian Coalition started to cozy up to politicians with a conservative social and economic agenda. It’s precisely at that moment when pollsters began to record a retreat from religion by an important segment of the population. Religion disguised as partisan politics may energize evangelical voters, but with respect to faith it has backfired.”
        https://www.thedailybeast.com/blame-evangelicals-for-the-decline-in-christian-faith

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Political corruption has always been around.

          Maybe you should start investigating PACs like the Tobacco PAC.

          All the physicians know tobacco is bad for you so why didn’t they lobby against the Tobacco industry? Why didn’t the life insurance and health insurance companies lobby against it so they could lower premiums.

          Nobody did. They slapped a surgeon’s warning on a pack of cigarettes and said use them at your own risk. Now decades later people know cigarette smoking evils are not limited to the smoker. Second hand smoke exposure is deadly and even the children of smokers can be affected in all sorts of health ways by their irresponsible smoking parents.

          Hollywood made smoking chic back in the 30’s and 40’s and the Tobacco lobby kept tobacco legal and now Big Pharma, medical doctors and the insurance companies make a killing from the drugs, medical treatment and higher premiums that people pay.

          So why wasn’t cigarette smoking made illegal along time ago if it can affect babies negatively?
          We have to tolerate the sin that negatively impacts the innocent huh?

          That is dirty politics. Money is almost always involved.

          So what is your freedom if you did not exercise it in a socially responsible manner but instead used it in disregard of the rights and health of other people?

          The Tobacco Lobby by OpenSecrets.org: Center for Responsible Politics
          https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=A02

          Why aren’t the doctors out leading a crusade against tobacco? Maybe because they are too busy handling the medical issues that never should have happened except people get in the habit of tolerating evil behavior as if it is normal. That is where tolerating sin gets people. In hot water and it even drags the innocent into it as well because the socially irresponsible aren’t too good at looking into the future and considering the consequences. It is all about me and now with the irresponsible. They might miss a little pleasure. They never stop to think all the pain they and others are going to reap by their irresponsible behavior.

          So keep tolerating sin Bryan for half baked political opinions and see where you end up later.

          People do reap what they sow and smokers reap a lot of negative health conditions by sowing to their weak flesh. Too bad they couldn’t confine their sin to themselves but had to transfer negative health consequences to their descendants.

          Sin makes people weak.

          Reply
  7. Susan says:

    Andy, why should anyone believe you or me when people can research the Constitutional requirement for presidency and check Obama’s biography against the record.

    Obama delayed and sealed some of his personal records from public scrutiny unlike McCain who when questioned on the same matter immediately went before Congress and presented his birth certificate.

    Reply
      • Andy Ryan says:

        So to answer Susan’s question “Why should anyone believe you or me”, the answer is:
        Do believe Andy, because he hasn’t lied
        Don’t believe Susan, because she does lie.
        Funny how it’s the first black president who got all the conspiracy theories about not fulfilling the legal requirements.

        Reply
        • toby says:

          I bet Ozzy Osbourne knows her.
          Mental wounds not healing
          Life’s a bitter shame
          I’m going off the rails on a crazy train.

          Reply
        • toby says:

          She’s believing any bs she reads. Whatever she’s reading she didn’t even get the last name right. The conspiracy theory says the name was Soetoro and that he was registered as a foreign student at Columbia. Which was false.

          Reply
          • Andy Ryan says:

            So it’s a double whammy of believing any nonsense and then misreading the nonsense to create her own all-new nonsense. All several stop removed from reality. I’d prefer the honesty of people who’d just come out and say they don’t want black people in positions of power, and that even a guy with mob connections who puts brown children in cages and concentration camps (as is happening now) is preferable to a woman as POTUS.

          • Andy Ryan says:

            Susan now thinks calling out lies about a black President means you’re anti-Christian. Let that sink in: she thinks lying about a black President is a Christian duty. Keep digging, Susan.
            .
            “It is immoral to personally attack people”
            The person who said this called me a holocaust denier because I pointed out that the evidence for the apostles dying as martyrs mostly consists of ‘Church tradition’. Which not only counts as a personal attack, but ironically also by comparing the two, diminishes the huge amount of evidence for the holocaust.

          • toby says:

            I’ve stopped responding to her directly. It helps that I’ve been taking time off and don’t get on the computer as much. You get away from the crazy and you miss the crazy things that trigger you to respond. But back to work today, so we’ll see.

        • Susan Tan says:

          I didn’t lie at all. I may have misremembered but that is not lying.

          And I have now changed my opinion of you Andy Ryan and you may not be an anti-Semite but you are an anti-Christian as your daily posts prove on this blog.

          Most militantly minded atheists in my personal experiences are and many of them twist people’s statements to engage in ad hominem attacks. Which I believe stem from irrationality and immorality. It is immoral to personally attack people.

          Since an anti-Christian seems to demonstrate the same way of thinking as a racist I will leave you to discuss with other anti-Christians.

          You are the minority and like to paint false pictures to fit into places where you should not fit in.

          I read an atheist commenting about how he hated to attend church with his wife so he had not revealed to her he was an unbeliever.

          You atheists are the ones full of deception and willing to rationalize to get what you want. No matter many devout Christians don’t want relationships with you. You will lie your way into the relationship anyway because 70 percent of atheists are male and only 30 percent are female.

          So you can stop questioning my ethics. I have had a bellyful of atheist nonsense. I have had atheist troll me like psychopaths online so I know sin has done a number in your heads.

          Too bad you could not examine yourself before casting insults.

          Your veneer of civilization is so thin as to be almost non-existent.

          And don’t ever bring up politics again. I hold a degree in them but gave them up long ago and I concentrate on evangelism and bible study and charity now.

          I know how corrupt politics is and the politicians will tend to reflect more and more corruption as long as their constituents tolerate it.

          I almost never involve myself in politics beyond supporting the pro-life lobby or some anti-Christian persecution cause.

          So start studying what makes you so darn anti-Christian mean. You may discover your own hardening in sin to be at the root of all this social meanness you display.

          You don’t want to be corrected. You don’t really want the truth either or you would have accepted God’s valid criticism of the US race s long time ago.

          I am going off to have a lethal disease treated now and don’t have time to correct your nonsense further.

          So you better start reflecting on what makes you so mean. You really aren’t civilized enough to exchange posts with.

          Have a blessed day.

          Reply
      • Susan says:

        Oh did you see his name was Barry Soeharto while he lived in Indonesia and had to claim to be Indonesian to receive his education there?

        That means at one time he held citizenship other than US citizenship.

        IIRC Indonesia didn’t allow dual citizenship at the time he lived there. So he had to claim to be Indonesian to utilize their school system.

        If he ever claimed to be anything but American then that disqualifies his as a presidential.

        Reply
  8. toby says:

    An unlimited being (non-material, not composed of parts) does not require fine-tuning.
    I’ll have to watch the video and see if Millican called BS on this. Says who? should have been the response. Then the theist would wander off into unsupported suppositions territory.

    Reply
    • KR says:

      You must be in the wrong thread. This discussion is about Obama illegitimately sneaking into Indonesian elementary school.

      Reply
      • toby says:

        What a horrible faux pas. Forgive me. I guess my input would, “so what if he did?” Is someone shouting “Show me his report card”? I think a few here listen to too much Alex Jones.

        Reply
        • KR says:

          You’d have to admit old Alex is pretty addictive. Gotta be careful with the dosage, though. When I get too much of the crazy, it’s a comfort to know I can always come here and be soothed by the calming rational wisdom of Susan.

          Reply
          • toby says:

            He does have a nice amount of gravel in his voice, but I can only deal with it when someone else is watching it and offering criticism. I can’t take it straight. Maybe if I had a bunch of weed and got paranoid it would make sense.
            .
            I don’t know if it’s the wisdom that’s calming or the large word count and stultifying content.

          • bob says:

            Addictive? I have never been able to watch more than about a minute of that nut – and I have only done that perhaps twice.

  9. Susan says:

    The Consequences of Sin, by James Vaughan, MA
    http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/vaughan/the_consequences_of_sin.htm

    God says people have the disease of sin. Now imagine what leaving this sin deliberately ignored and misdiagnosed might do to a person.

    And don’t call me crazy. I regularly examine myself and everyone around me. I have a natural inborn counselor personality type so I am detached enough to assess all the people around me and while some people think the glass is half full others say it is half empty but I say it is both.

    So don’t play pseudo arm chair psychiatrist like that unqualified evolutionist Dawkins does.

    He is no expert on human psychology at all. He has no degree in it at all.

    All he has is his pet anti-theories about religion.

    And if you engage and take seriously inexpert anti-religion pet theories because they pander to your sin then you did nothing to cooperate with God and get forgiven and healed of it.

    In fact, by your very own inability to examine yourself and take the problem to Jesus for resolution you have set yourself up to relapse repeatedly into this dangerous psycho-spiritual condition. You are in fact living in it unregulated.

    So don’t come onto Christian boards pursuing an imaginary, trumped up vendetta.

    Do what Christ says and examine yourself if you still have full control of your own mind.

    Staying mentally locked up with sin could do a lot of damage to a person.

    But Jesus Christ is the door out of the irrationality of sin.

    Reply
  10. Susan Tan says:

    “Religious People Are Less Smart but Atheists Are Psychopaths”

    And

    “Is the Human Brain Hardwired for God?”

    http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/new-study-says-religious-people-are-less-smart-but-atheists-are-psychopaths-5

    A Christian is more empathetic than an atheist.

    Empathy is necessary to relate to people and for social success.

    Worship may be related to a heightened sense of gratitude and gratitude is a benevolent emotion that is beneficial for the individual according to research into it.

    If you have to study something then try examining yourself and what makes you tick then ask yourself what gives you the right to override someone else’s thought processes when they didn’t want your interference at all.

    Reply
  11. Andy Ryan says:

    Pointing out that Susan is repeating debunked racist conspiracy theories about a black president is now called ‘overriding someone else’s thought processes’. George Orwell described this doublethink well in 1984.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      Make sure you scroll down to get the brain research on believers and unbelievers.

      Quote from a research professor named Tony Jack.

      “When there’s a question of faith, from the analytic point of view, it may seem absurd,” said the research team’s leader Professor Tony Jack. “But, from what we understand about the brain, the leap of faith to belief in the supernatural amounts to pushing aside the critical/analytical way of thinking to help us achieve greater social and emotional insight.”

      Another quote from the second article:
      Richard Boyatzis hopes that their study can help moderate how we approach the supposed battle of science and religion. “Because the networks suppress each other, they may create two extremes,” he said. “Recognizing that this is how the brain operates, maybe we can create more reason and balance in the national conversations involving science and religion.”

      You can have two lines of thinking in your head unless one line is suppressing the other one in your head.

      That is why there are Christian scientists like Francis Collins.

      Who needs their critical thinking sabotaging their morality all the time?

      Sometimes morality questions require value judgments that do not rely on scientific facts at all.

      Reply
    • Susan says:

      I am not arguing politics with you any more, Andy, because I know the good Lord said to Bless you even if you do twist everything I way.

      Have a blessed day. It is easier to just pass on a blessing than it is to hang around analyzing everyone’s wrong thoughts and sinful social disease.

      Maybe you will wake up to the truth some day and seek the cure.

      Politics are so bad worldwide because so very few people take God’s claims about sin seriously enough.

      The sin is so bad in this world that it has quite spoiled it.

      If you spent half the time on the Bible identifying God’s ideas that you do on arguing politics then you probably wouldn’t be an atheist.

      Have a blessed day! I am trying to break the posting habit because if you won’t deal with your own sin then how can I?

      I can only point out God’s irrefutable claim about people that sin exists in them and that this world displays the every day reality of it.

      It doesn’t make sense to refuse to stop sinning. A rational person knows to do that.

      Have a blessed day. Meditate and pray on it and research this world for the revelation of the awful truth of sin. It is all around us. That evidence is easy to come by, too.

      Peace Be With You!

      Reply
      • Bryan says:

        “Have a blessed day!”. When a fundamentalist ends an argument with that it’s pretty much the equivalent of “Go f___ yourself.”

        Reply
          • Bryan says:

            “To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”
            Looks like Jesus is talking about you Mark!

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            As usual you are both so very confused and blind. I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW.
            .
            Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    • Andy Ryan says:

      ” the leap of faith to belief in the supernatural amounts to pushing aside the critical/analytical way of thinking ”
      ….so it’s saying religious believers reject critical and analytical thinking. I’m not sure this supports Helen as much as she thinks it does. Probably because she’s pushed aside critical and analytical thinking. Not sure this justifies lying about a black president though. Also not sure how putting distraught, crying kids in cages demonstrates higher empathy either.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        You should stick to atheist blogs, Andy. Your mind is closed to God’s revelation, Andy.

        And do some research into the emotions. There is a Canadian philosopher. I forget his name. Who wrote a book that emotions are primarily rational in function.

        It is the cold minded logic devotees that tend to denigrate and devalue the function of human emotions as if logic is everything.

        But there are different brain types. Some people are more intuitive than logical and synthesize information differently.

        I have read that woman have a multi lane highway in their minds so they multitask better than men than haven’t got so many lines of thinking in their heads.

        No wonder you logic devotees try to force everyone to think like you then denigrate them when they don’t because their internal operating system. The construction of their brains is different from your own.

        You really think you are so damn clever trying to force a Mac operating system over another person built on a Windows system.

        I have dealt with reading the posts of logic devotees for years. You will cut someone different from yourself to ribbons for not being like you.

        You atheist logic geeks are the intolerant ruthless ones always determined to devalue the rational function of emotion and force your version of critical thinking on people but your critical thinking isn’t better than God’s.

        If you could obey God then you might actually develop some empathy and stop sitting up on message boards devaluing people who may be thinking with more clarity than you are.

        Go pray to your logic idol now. But don’t expect me to.

        Roger Sperry said logic is the servant to intuition.

        You just use logic and bow to it.

        But some people use logic and intuition.

        And your brain preference and programming doesn’t get to override their’s.

        Exalting men’s thinking over their Creator’s. You have your priorities all mixed up and have dedicated yourself to staying that way.

        Reply
        • Andy Ryan says:

          “You should stick to atheist blogs”
          You’re not my boss. Sorry if my opposition to lies and racism offends you.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            Well since you both dislike me so much and keep misconstruing what I say I won’t be reading your posts any more, Bob and Andy.

            I hope God turns things around for you both and you start the whole self examination process so Jesus can set you free.

            Have a blessed hope filled life both of you!

        • Bob says:

          Said the liar – You really think you are so damn clever…
          Hey Andy, do you know what the difference is between “clever” and “damn cleaver”?
          I’m just asking ’cause I have no idea.

          Reply
  12. Susan says:

    Wiki bio:

    Barack Obama spent most of his childhood years in Honolulu, where his mother attended college. Obama started a close relationship with his maternal grandparents. In 1965, his mother remarried to Lolo Soetoro from Indonesia. Two years later, Dunham took Obama with her to Indonesia to reunite him with his stepfather. In 1971, Obama returned to Honolulu to attend Punahou School, from which he graduated in 1979.

    There it is. Obama six years in school in Indonesia.

    Some claim the whole birth controversy started because the Democrats questioned McCain’s citizenship when he has 2 American parents not one and was born on US soil on a military base in Panama.

    It seems the liberals can dish it out but can’t take it when things are turned back on them. They like their demonization of any people who disagree with their liberal ideas but that is freedom. Using your own mind and not letting people tell you what to think.

    Reply
  13. Susan says:

    If I provide you with the evidence JCB then you escape self examination and let your sin off the hook.

    Sin is so obvious to some that I don’t have to show any evidence at all.

    Examine the evidence of sin in your own life. Why don’t you recognize it?

    Self examination is a personally subjective activity.

    I am not suppose to be locating the evidence of your sin. You should be capable of doing it yourself unless you allow another motive to incapacitate you.

    There is the inner personal exam and the outer one where we can check if sin exists.

    I never found it hard to see sin in either the pages of the Bible or in events related in a history book so why do you minimalize that evidence?

    You are going to have to think about why you do that?

    You will have to start teaching yourself to accept the reality that sin exists.

    Most Christians don’t ask for this evidence they already know it exists both subjectively in themselves and objectively in the world.

    You keep substituting some standard that you control to deny other people’s processing of reality.

    You might need some really good counseling to approach this subjectively if you have any trouble doing the self examination yourself. Something a lot less public than a message board.

    May God Bless you and keep you JCB! You are important to God so try not to skip the self evidence inspection exam. Take care.

    Reply
  14. Susan says:

    Sin is dysfunctionality.

    Many people and families in this world are dysfunctional to varying degrees. That is sin at work in those people and families.

    And what could be more dysfunctional than rebelling against the Great Physician who sent His Son to cure the dysfunctionality of sin.

    You have to be in your right mind to fight sin but people have an inner enemy called the flesh to sabotage them along with disinformation from the world to keep them out of a more godly frame of mind so they won’t even attempt to beat sin. Instead the thing that destroys people and families thinking they are intelligent enough to co-exist with an enemy that is bent on their destruction.

    That is how sin makes people too weak willed and addled in their own minds to defend themselves.

    Most people know not to live next door to a criminal psychopath. It is inviting problems but they willingly turn a blind eye to sin in themselves and engage in lots of it as if it does not have consequences and won’t make them increasingly dysfunctional.

    But if you reap to the flesh you reap consequences. Even death sometimes.

    But if you reap towards God you reap eternal life.

    We can all choose who mentors us.

    And if you picked the wrong people to counsel you then don’t be surprised when you get a bad life result.

    Be sure to inspect the lives of the people giving you counsel.

    If they can’t manage their own lives why would you let them counsel or teach you their way.

    The soundest counsel always comes from God and He still speaks to people today through His Word and His prophets.

    But look out for those false prophets. Did what they say line up with God’s Word.

    There are many televangelists today who’s preaching or lives don’t align with God’s Word.

    Some of these people are guilty of delivering the prosperity gospel which is not the Gospel.

    Some false prophets have been caught making Satanic and Masonic hand signs while they preach.
    There are videos of lots of false prophets doing that.

    The counterfeits have always been around.

    I know it all sounds crazy but the video evidence identifying false prophets is all over youtube.

    Christians do inspect other Christians for uprightness. How can you guard your heart from the evil one if you don’t?

    The videos are posted as warnings because the false prophets are all over the media now.

    Fortunately, the Word is always true even in a false prophet’s mouth.

    You need to guard your spiritual birth. For that you need discernment from God.

    Atheists seem to lack discernment. They lump all Christians as phones or delusional because they don’t do indepth doctrinal analysis and compare it with individuals. Instead they stereotype all as bad apples from the bad apples they encountered.

    That is not critical thinking being able to tell Christians apart. That is discrimination which is a form of persecution.

    Do I really have to suffer discrimination from unholy people who refuse to acknowledge God as their Father and deal with sin.

    I don’t.

    I only do it in the remote chance that someone has enough of a mind not overclouded by sin that he can still rethink things and get the revelation from God.

    How do you get a revelation from God if you don’t get your heart right with Him first.

    If God says He loves people then He does. Don’t let the Word deniers twist God’s Word to say He does not love you when He says He does in both Word and deed.

    God is giving everyone His unbreakable promise and you listen to people who break their own word and twist God’s Word?

    That does not compute. It shows your heart is not right with God so take your heart back from the liars of this world and simply accept God at His Word. Cf. John 3:16.

    Reply
    • Bryan says:

      This is the thing that absolutely fascinates me about religion.

      Somewhere in Islam Susan has a doppelganger who believes just as strongly in the Koran as she does in the Bible. Who believes in Mohamed as she believes in Jesus. And can use Islamic apologetics the way Susan uses Christian apologetics (Susan, at this point we know you are dying to list 10,000 ways Islam is false. That’s not thr point of this post.)

      My point is that it’s fascinating watching people so bent on “proving” their invisible father/god is there.

      That’s all.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Well you ought to check out Galatians 1. God already warned people not to accept angelic revisions of the Bible.

        Look at verse 8 closely:

        No Other Gospel
        6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

        10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.

        Mohammed claimed to receive his revelation from an angel in a cave.

        And a prophet does not outrank the son of God.

        Are all the angels obedient to God at this time or are some operating sowing confusion and disobedience?

        It is really quite presumptuous for a man to correct God’s Word and contradict it, isn’t it?

        Who is the clay to correct the Potter?

        Go study the life of Mohammed. The Jews tried to poison him.

        Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “Who believes in Mohamed as she believes in Jesus.”
        .
        Show me in the quran where mohammed was crucified, died, and resurrected in 3 days for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Your assertion is pure garbage.
        .
        .
        “My point is that it’s fascinating watching people so bent on “proving” their invisible father/god is there.”
        .
        Almost as fascinating as watching the contortions atheists go to to say GOD does NOT exist.
        Not going to end well for you. But hey we Christians really do NOT know what we are talking about. If that were really TRUE then you would NOT be here. Tell me how much time do you spend on the islamic apologist sites telling them they are wrong?
        .
        Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

        Reply
  15. Susan says:

    Romans 6:12-13 ESV
    12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

    Reply
  16. Susan says:

    A disease like sin can reign over a person spiritually but God reigns over life and death.

    Deuteronomy 32:39:
    King James Bible
    See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

    You Reign, William Murphy
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VGJpcDvly1g

    Reply

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