God Is Not A Moral Being and the Moral Argument Is Often Wrongheaded

By J. Brian Huffling

God is not a moral being and often the way the moral argument is used is just wrong. What I mean by the former is that God does not abide by moral commands, nor does he fulfill obligations or virtues in the way that humans do. I am also denying that God is his own standard of goodness in the moral sense. To be one’s own standard would be equivalent to being arbitrary since whatever he did would be in accordance with his standard. To say he can’t violate his nature is also unhelpful as nothing can violate its nature. (What does that even mean? If something did something that supposedly “went against its nature,” then it obviously wasn’t against its nature or the action couldn’t have been done.) In this article, I am going to explain what it means for a human to be moral, demonstrate why that doesn’t apply to God, and then show why the moral argument usually doesn’t work but how it could work.

God Is Not A Moral Being and the Moral Argument Is Often Wrongheaded

What Does It Mean for A Being to Be Moral?

There are many theories that try to explain what it means for a human to be moral. Hopefully, a Christian would want to maintain a theory that upholds an objective standard of morality and thus deny moral relativism. Divine command theory is one popular approach in Christian circles to argue for an objective basis for morality. Even if this theory were true, it could not account for why God would be moral. It would also not demonstrate any real basis for an action being moral or immoral other than God just stating it as so. However, if divine command theory were true, it would not demonstrate that God is moral since he does not follow commands from another being. (Saying he follows his own commands reduces to being arbitrary and is probably incoherent.)

Other ethical systems that in my opinion are more rationally acceptable and biblical are virtue theory and natural law ethics. The latter comports well with Romans 2:15 which says that the “law is written” on people’s hearts. In other words, we have a built-in conscience. Natural law teaches that humans have a nature and actions that promote the good of that nature are good actions. Conversely, actions that prohibit the good of our human nature are bad. So, a human killing another human to eat him for dinner is evil because of the nature of being a human (he is made in God’s image). However, it is not morally wrong for a human, or other animal, to kill a deer in order to eat it.

In accordance with this human nature are virtues that are cultivated and actualized. Natural law can imbibe Aristotle’s virtue ethics very will, with certain necessary tweaks. One could argue that being sanctified through trials is one way our virtues are realized. The Sermon on the Mount seems to fit very well with virtue theory, that is, on becoming a person of good character.

In short, humans are moral beings because we have a certain nature. We have a law written on our hearts that reflects this moral aspect of our being that God gave us.

God Transcends Moral Categories

But God has no such nature. He has no moral law written on his heart. He does not become more virtuous. He does not live up to some standard of goodness. He is not even his own standard—whatever that even means. To say that he would not do something that would be considered wrong since his character is in accordance with goodness is still to subordinate his character to something else, or to compare it to something “external” to him. Is this not the point of Job? When Job wants to take God to court the obvious question is raised, “Who would be the judge?” God’s answer to Job as to why God allowed such evil to befall Job is basically, “I’m God and you are not.”

But Doesn’t the Bible Say God Is Good?

Because God is not a human he does not have human virtues. God is simply not morally good in the sense of possessing virtues like humans. But the Bible does say that God is good, praiseworthy, loving, etc. And there is a sense in which he is good, but I don’t think this is moral goodness. The Bible often uses various figures of speech and metaphor to talk about God. In fact, the Bible more often than not uses physical terms to describe God. However, orthodox Christians do not think that God is physical, even though there are probably more descriptions of God that seem to indicate him having a material body than being merely a spirit. Until recently, at least for the most part, orthodox Christians have not held that God has emotions like humans; although, the Bible says that God gets angry, jealous, etc. These descriptions of God are anthropomorphic, meaning that they are just ways of describing God in a human language without really being literal.

God is not a human and is not bound by a human body, does not have changing passions/emotions, and is not constrained or bound by human morality. He cannot be moral or immoral since there is no standard that he measures up to or virtues to fulfill. If there were a standard that was not part of him, then he would not be God. And again, to be his own standard borders on incoherence. It wouldn’t matter what he did, he would be completely “in the right.” We only say things like, “God would never do so and so” because we have a notion of what a morally good action looks like on the human level. However, God is not a human. We have a horrible habit as humans of making God like us rather than recognizing that he is not like us. He is infinite, unlimited being. We are finite beings that he has given a particular nature that allows us to change for the better or worse depending on our actions. He cannot change. As Brian Davies says,

The notion of God as subject to duties or obligations (and as acting in accordance with them) would, I think, have been thought of by [Aquinas] as an unfortunate lapse into anthropomorphism, as reducing God to the level of a human creature.

—Davies, Brian. Thomas Aquinas on God and Evil (Kindle Locations 1253-1255). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition. (By the way, this is an excellent book that deals with God not being a moral being.)

God Is Good

God is good, in fact, he’s perfect. But he’s not morally perfect as perfection in that sense has the notion of actualizing some moral potential (or being his own perfect standard which I have already criticized as being incoherent and arbitrary). He is metaphysically good and perfect. He is perfect in the sense that he is complete being and lacks nothing. Further, all other perfections that are found in creatures as effects pre-exist in a way in him as the cause. This even includes goodness in the area of morality and virtues, but without making him moral in the way that we are. Matter pre-exists in God as its cause without God being material. But there is a sense in which that God can be said to have virtues, but in a very analogous kind of way.

In Summa Theologiae I. 21. 1 and Summa Contra Gentiles 1.92, 1.93, and 1.94 Aquinas talks about how certain virtues can be said of God. For example, God is said to be just because he gives to people what they deserve. This is because for a man to be just is to give people what they deserve, so we analogously say that God is just. However, he does not owe us anything. Rather, he has constituted us in such a way that we require certain goods to fulfill what God wants us to be. Thus, since God has made us in such a way, he gives us what is required to fulfill this goal. But this does not demonstrate that God is a moral being in the sense of having to act in a certain way lest he be in violation of a moral law. The moral law that we talk about for humans is part of our nature. God has no such nature that is constituted of a moral law and there is no law he is subservient to. He does what he wills and that is as far as it goes. He is not judged by any standard.

The Moral Argument

So how does this relate to the moral argument? Arguments that depend on some reasoning that we are moral because we share in God’s moral goodness are on the wrong track. We are not moral because we are somehow tethered to God’s morality. We are also not moral because we are made in his image. We are made in his image, but as already argued, he is not moral in the sense that we are. We shouldn’t attribute characteristics to God because we have them and are said to be in his image. We should look to him to see how we are in his image, not make him into our image. So the moral argument needs to say something different than our morality needs to be accounted for in a being who is also moral.

But the moral argument can be successful, but probably as part of a cosmological argument. Since we are beings with an objective nature that nature needs accounting for. The objective goodness that we have and are obligated to also needs accounting for. It can’t be accounted for by us since the cause for such a nature with objective moral obligations needs an “external” grounding. The conclusion of such reasoning would be a demonstration of God’s existence.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Christians today need to be very careful how we talk about God’s morality. There is an analogous way in which we can talk about God has having virtues, as Aquinas says. However, this does not translate into God being moral in the way that we are. God is not a human and is thus not bound by human morality. He transcends humanity and our morality. Our perfections do pre-exist in him, but so do all good perfections. We need to recognize that God is not in the image of man. We are in his image. He is not a cosmic superman. He is the transcendent Creator and Sustainer of all finite being.

 


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27 replies
  1. Brent Hurst says:

    First of all Bryan,
    .
    I applaud you for at least trying to think deeply, and you do at some points. And believe me that has not happened here before since I’ve been reading this posted articles. So I will nitpick at any think I think borderline.
    .
    But I will offer some examples of how God’s goodness transcends the good and evil of morality.
    .
    God is LIght, this “Light” hovers over the surface of the deep, and from the darkness God creates light. This Creation presents us with the duality of light and darkness, but this light is created light, not the same as that which refers to God as Light.
    .
    The light and darkness, good and evil, that are inherent in Creation, both fall short of the Divine Light that is God’s Being. Morality, like eating from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, can never allow us into the Light of God’s Being, because it is a question of Being that divides us. And so we must eat from the Tree of LIfe, receive God’s Being and Nature as it is provided for us by Christ.

    .
    And so God sent His Son, a Seed of His own nature, so that we might receive God within us, and thus one day also enter into God.
    .
    In God there is no division between His Being and His actions, what He is is what He does. And so as Infinite Being, Omni Being, He is at all times who He is and at all levels. He does not need morality because He does not choose, He simply IS. This is part of the mystery of YHWH as a name “I am that I am”.
    .
    We exists where there is darkness, and even the light is merely darkness forced into alignment and order.
    .
    But where God exists, there is no darkness, only Light and He is that Light and there is nothing beyond Him. But statements like this are difficult for minds still held bondage by the influence of Time and Space.

    Reply
  2. Andy Ryan says:

    “Since we are beings with an objective nature that nature needs accounting for.”
    .
    Can you first show that we ARE beings with an objective moral nature? I’m guessing that’s what you mean by ‘objective nature’.
    If I held that our ideas about morals can be explained through naturalistic means – we’re a social species that have instincts, empathy and a set of taboos about certain behaviours that developed through a combination of culture and evolution – could you show that you have a better explanation?

    Reply
  3. Bob says:

    BRENT HURST:
    I applaud you for at least trying to think deeply
    I get the distinct impression that you, Brent, think to highly of yourself. Most of what you post on this blog is unintelligible, meaningless to us shallow thinkers. One would think that if you were actually a “deep thinker” you would be able to communicate what you are thinking so that those of us who have not reached your level, your depth, would be able to understand what you are communicating, but no, you just come across as someone who has some psychological issues.
    I believe you are intelligent, perhaps very intelligent, but as we all should recognize, even intelligent people can have mental issues. And one of those mental issues is conceit.
    .
    But statements like this are difficult for minds still held bondage by the influence of Time and Space.
    In other words – it’s not the fault of you, the communicator, that I, the reader can’t make any sense of what you are attempting to convey – it is my fault for being “held in bondage by…”. In other words – you have no ability or desire to “dumb it down” a tad, so that I can have an Ah-ha moment…?
    .
    But honestly, what is most telling in all of your responses is this fact: In spite of your claimed “deep thinking” abilities, your grasp of all things “spiritual”, you can AND DO, just like the rest of us – Christian and skeptic – stoop to the level of hurling insults and carrying a grudge, often times for post after post after post, and often times you are perfectly proud of your behavior.
    For a self described “Christian mystic”, there really doesn’t seem to be anything mysterious about you. You are really no different. Why is that?
    .
    And more to the larger point – why would I want what you (believe) you have? If what you have (deep thinking ability and all) doesn’t cause you to behave any better than anyone else, then why would /should anyone want what you (believe) you have?
    .
    And this goes to an even larger point – Why have I never encountered a Christian, in all my 60 years of life, who has given me even a moments pause, causing me to think to myself that they have something that I should desire? Why has not the behavior of a single Christian, even during my 25 years as a bible believing Christian, ever made me think to myself, “That person is themselves, evidence for the existence of God, evidence for the Spirit of God!”
    .
    But no – if anything, Christians themselves, Christians like you Brent, their attitudes and behaviors, are evidence that IF THERE IS A GOD, the God of Christianity is not him.
    The only aspect in the lives of Christians I encounter, that I find “noteworthy” is this: Christians are amazingly adept at suspending their reasoning abilities when it comes to examining what they believe, AND WHY.
    .
    r.u.reasonable@gmail.com

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      That’s exactly right. Why inspect anyone else’s beliefs when you have not inspected yourself for internal error.

      That is why Jesus said to get the beam out of your own eye before removing someone else’s.

      Atheism appears to be one long escape from social responsibility trip while the atheist says “love me anyway…I am not so bad…I could not even escape from my own escapist mentality long enough to help God deal with my sin but I am fit to analyze Christians thought processes on message boards while the devil rules me.”

      That is what your behavior says to me and if you are too morally weak to let God deal with the devil and give you a solution to sin then you ought to stick to your own message boards and stop pretending you know when you refused to know by escaping your whole life.

      Escapism is the flight from reality. All your powerless idols do is give you a pretext to escape further and further away instead of dealing with the present evil here and now.

      Moral cowards….running away from a fight with the devil.

      If you won’t stand up to the devil then he will rule you like he did Maralyn Murray O’Hair.

      Reply
      • Bob says:

        Dear, dear Susan…you know I love you. I just wish there was a way to communicate with you on a rational basis, not polluted with all of this talk of “sin” and “devil”. And believe me, I “inspect” myself for “internal error” constantly. One might say – to much.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          You need to learn God’s way, Bob.

          Unbelievers are the walking dead. If you read the Bible you can figure out anyone without Jesus is a zombie.

          Anyone walking with Jesus is walking in his new life and has been translated into the Kingdom of God.

          Christians have been mistaught on hell. This world could be hell for s lot of people. Where did Adam and Eve walk from? Paradise. Where did they end up? In a world less than paradise with sin a major contributing factor.

          Any world less than paradise might be considered a ” hell” by comparison.

          So why would you linger around being the walking dead when Jesus is the cure to all that.

          We already know we were born in bodies with problems. Doomed to die. We look innocent enough as babies until this world corrupts us.

          So how do you escape corruption. You listen to God and grow a spine and learn to love, respect and obey Him.

          Some of these natural laws we perceive today as natural ones could at one time have been perceived as spiritual forces or laws and the metaphysical is not easy to master without a mentor.

          So why aren’t you busy escaping your body of death to receive a
          whole new life. Did you settle for a lie.

          It is easy to settle in a world of constant crisis. We all seek an escape from a chaotic world but God tells us. There is His way and the world’s way.

          Opt for His way you have more peace and eternal life.

          Opt for the world’s way and you have temporary gratification.

          There is no end to greed.

          Have you ever seen a greedy person content with what he had?

          The Bible talks of many existential states of the human condition.

          Sin has more evil behavioral symptoms than cancer so why do some pretend it doesn’t exist?

          Because it is God’s word classification?

          Sin is as plain as the nose on a human face unless you are determined not to see it.

          Reply
    • Brent Hurst says:

      Wow Bob,
      .
      That was a well thought out and comprehensive insult, nice work. And the bold lettering on the last line, nice touch. Its good to know we can all speak our minds.

      Reply
      • Bob says:

        No insults in anything I wrote – but that of course will not prevent anyone from taking it that way…of course. No insults – just brutal honesty.
        And the bold – simply there for emphasis.
        Now, care to actually address anything that I wrote? Huh? No?

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Bob, you want people to examine your perspective but a Christian is suppose to focus on God’s.

          You can’t keep getting in this battle of wills trying to override God’s perspective with your own.

          You may have missed something in your self examination.

          Maybe you can pray to God and ask Him to reveal what your blind spot is.

          There is an inevitable clash when world views collide because these are different value systems.

          Rather than confront. Compare and inspect.

          I see atheists all the time thinking they will jolt theists out of their worldview. It doesn’t work.

          Some people really do wear their faith like the Armor of God cf. The Book of Ephesians.

          Reply
          • Bob says:

            I see atheists all the time thinking they will jolt theists out of their worldview. It doesn’t work.
            It worked for me – 18 years ago I gave up my Christian faith after reading Dan Barkers book, “Losing Faith in Faith”. 25 years of believing in bible God, gone in a matter of days. I have never regretted giving it up, but I do regret all those years believing in a myth…but that’s just me…your mileage may vary.

        • Brent Hurst says:

          Bob,
          .
          “”””Now, care to actually address anything that I wrote? Huh? No?””””
          .
          Its all just Ad Hominem, what’s to address,
          .
          But I’m glad to see your opinions becoming consistent,

          Reply
  4. Susan says:

    Your book read is not the same as Sam Harris like conversational intolerance.

    If your mind is made up there is no reason for me to discuss with you is there especially since as an adult you can re-think things for yourself.

    You may be more trusting than I am.

    I would never take a man’s perspective over God’s.
    Why submit my mind to a lesser thinker. I used to watch men’s assumptions get smashed all the time.

    God doesn’t assume. He knows and nobody counsels Him.

    Have a blessed day!

    Reply
  5. Susan Tan says:

    Getting an answer from God is better than men’s opinions.

    A lot of people don’t really care about others so they won’t send you to God to be healed of your spiritual blindness and other diseases.

    They refused to hear God and experience Him and they want you to do the same. Stay cut off from God and lacking His wisdom and counsel and restorative power in your life.

    They want their opinions of God to rule and influence your life. They act like blind Pharisees.

    Anyone can turn to God and ask Him to cure them of sin and spiritual blindness but that requires them to turn from evil, too.

    Why should God work with you if you are willing to tolerate evil.

    You have to turn to God and turn all your evil ways over to Him and let Him help extract you from them all.

    Science can’t teach people God’s way because God’s way is the way of attachment and commitment while science is like Buddhism. It is all about detachment and a lack of commitment and that detachment keeps you locked up in your worldly ways not walking in God’s way.

    God is not interested in a small portion of a person any more than the devil is.

    That is why a person can be possessed by a good spirit or an evil one.

    Study most people. Quite a few of them tolerate disorder and chaos in their homes because they don’t know to let the Spirit of God rule them in all their ways.

    A house divided cannot stand.

    A House Divided Cannot Stand
    22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

    24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [b]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

    25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Want to know more on this read Mark 12.

    Reply
    • toby says:

      Sweet sue, here’s how I (and probably the rest of us) think of you and your comments:
      1. You were born like the rest of us, with no knowledge of any sort of creator.
      2. You were instilled with the idea of a creator through your family or church.
      3. Your church or family got that idea from their holy book.
      4. You were given that idea from them and then read the holy book yourself.
      5. You clearly believe that holy book without knowing whether anything in it is true.
      6. We question you about your beliefs and you quote the holy book as evidence.
      7. We do not see that holy book as evidence as we cannot know whether anything in it even really happened.
      8. This is because it is a collection of anonymously written fragments which we cannot judge the author’s intentions.
      9. When asked you offer no evidence that any of it is true, just quotes from it and long diatribes about how you don’t think you can trust your (or other’s) thinking on anything so you trust that of god.
      10. What you are trusting as being god’s thinking is your personal (or instilled) interpretation of what you read in that book.
      11. Which you cannot offer any evidence for.
      12. You are on an apologetics site that purports that faith is reasonable.
      13. You offer no reasonability for any of your beliefs other than an unverifiable holy book.
      14. Your being here is perplexing and your long, sometimes rambling, posts only convey that you believe your interpretation of your holy book and think in line with your interpretation of what and how god thinks.
      15. This is a site for reading the opinions about apologetic arguments and commenting on them.
      16. You have no apologetic arguments that faith is reasonable.
      In light of this, how do you think your comments add anything to the conversation? You get attacked and scorned because you’re not here for the right reasons. This is a site for human reasoning to understand religious beliefs. You disavow human reasoning. therefore you are wasting your time here. You are only setting yourself up to hang on the cross of critical comments about you. Your proselytizing is falling on deaf ears because you’re in the wrong place. Much like trying to be a square peg in a round hole. There’s a place for you. But in a place arguing for reasonability is not it.

      Reply
      • Susan Tan says:

        You are a spiritual birth abortionist Toby. You self aborted your own spiritual birth and are now calling other people’s spiritual births a delusion.

        When you could not experientially know yourself.

        You are an outsider looking in.

        You do not have the experiential knowledge of a Christian who entered into God’s faith process to be separated from this world and given a holy new life by God.

        Something in you motivated you to fail spiritually so you always find the weakest Christians and claim they failed to support your own failure.

        I don’t believe in judging God from Imperfect people still in the middle of a metamorphosis.

        I always try to locate the true disciples who realized spiritual birth and actually try to follow Christ’s pattern to learn from.

        As for knowledge of my creator I did have it before I was born partially. A baby can hear in the womb and I was in utero at my mother’s baptism.

        So I believe I was elected before I was born. Touched by God in my mother’s womb like the prophet Jeremiah.

        How else did I get this truthful?

        You can destroy your own inner being by what you meditate on and you can learn the wrong way from the wrong people.

        So God gives the gift of repentance to start over.

        You ought to read the Parable of the Sower. It is all about how spiritual birth happens or doesn’t.

        Are you going to protect your own spiritual birth or keep going around on message boards acting like an intellectual savage towards people who have more spiritual sense than you do.

        You let this world impress it’s evil thinking on you but won’t let God transfer a single holy thought so you have dedicated yourself to serving an evil purpose.

        Who are you to correct a holy God?

        Why your whole life is a blasphemy.

        You better get in the Bible and let God wash those evil thought processes out of your head while you still have time and don’t delay.

        Nobody knows when he will die.

        Get your full fledged spiritual birth and separation from the world unto God or be gone with your ignorant attempts to falsely substitute the physical for the metaphysical.

        There are probably millions of people that can explain they felt separated by God and that is a spiritual process.

        Christ brings division from the world.

        You are not qualified to render judgments on a people passing through a process that you never went through.

        Christianity is higher than moral relativism so why are you busy undermining other people’s spiritual birth from a position of ignorance?

        That is exactly what mikitant atheists do and mockery is a sign of your callused heart.

        You have no right to own or meddle with my belief system Toby.

        You let the devil through the world tinker in your head to deny you spiritual birth and now you want access to mine?

        You had better repent!

        Reply
        • toby says:

          Thanks for ignoring anything I wrote and choosing only to give me a proselytizing rant. As I said, you’re a square peg in a round hole. This last post was not my meddling with your beliefs. It was me attempting to help you find a place more in line with your beliefs. If you choose to stay here with your long, off topic commentaries, it’s on you when you get derision. Do yourself a favor and find a place of like minded thinkers to commune with. You’re not helping anyone here or yourself.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            You leave Toby. This is a Christian site dedicated to the dissemination of God’s ideas.

            This is a blog comment section.

            It isn’t labeled debate section and your own purposes don’t control it.

          • toby says:

            Finally a succinct comment that comes to a relevant point. As I said this is an apologetics site. It’s articles are based on reasons for belief. You have none. A comments section is a place for comments. They need not be in support of the article and praising the author. Comments sections are de facto debate arenas.
            .
            I think it’s clear that you have some sort of obsessive condition that makes you spill out the ideas running at a frenetic pace in your head. You feed on these exchanges and can’t wait to respond, not really addressing anything commented, but spouting your mysticisms and non-reason blind faith. I think if everyone stopped responding to you, you’d eventually fade away to another site. It just so hard to resist responding to the clear lunacy of some of your posts though. So I’ll not promise to stop posting here, but I will stop responding to anything you say and hope others join me. Maybe I’ll do better than you when you’ve said multiple, multiple times that you were done with this site.
            .
            Get help. Allah’s peace be upon you. Heh heh.

          • Bob says:

            Toby, I am going to guess you and the other skeptics who visit this blog regularly have taken note that there is not a single Christian “apologist” who bothers to visit the comment section and respond.
            They do not care.
            Instead, they leave it to the unhinged, like Susan, Mark, and Brent.
            The actual Christian “apologists”, those who may have the capability, knowledge, and temperament to carry on dialogue with skeptics simply do not bother – they don’t care – perhaps they don’t even know there are comments to all these blog posts.
            .
            If anything, my experience here over the past few months has confirmed what I have observed for a very long time – that being – the vast majority of believers are perfectly comfortable never, ever feeling the need to defend what they believe. And because they feel no need to defend their beliefs, they have no idea how to defend their beliefs. And on the rare occasion that they may find themselves trying to defend their beliefs – as we have observed here on this blog – they fail miserably at the task…and they are incapable of recognizing that fact.
            .
            bob – over and out.
            .
            r.u.reasonable@gmail.com

          • toby says:

            Bob,
            They do not, post or respond here anymore. I think apologetics are something people came up with to make money at. Write books, give lectures, etc. They recycle the same arguments over and over and carefully craft them to hide the flaws in the arguments. They claim that faith is reasonable, but fail at demonstrating it.
            .
            Yes, there seems to only be unstable christian commenters here. Don’t forget Phillip and his pathological need to speak in philoso-logic obfuscation.
            .
            Apologists are preaching to the choir, keeping them distracted while they make money off them. If they could defend their arguments they would trouble themselves to at least respond to the most thoughtful challenges in the comments. But no. That’s hard and there’s nothing in it for them.

          • Andy Ryan says:

            The conversation from the other side has gone seriously downhill in recent months. All those people you mention have only recently started posting regularly. The only one left I’ll respond to now is TVZ. There used to be others who’d at least attempt to respond honestly to points. I guess they’ve all been scared off. There’s a kind of Darwinian survivalism at play here, that the only Christian posters left are the ones so obtuse they don’t realise they have no arguments.

          • toby says:

            the only Christian posters left are the ones so obtuse they don’t realise they have no arguments.
            Or worse (to me at least) they don’t even care they have no arguments.

  6. Susan says:

    I really don’t understand what drives a pack of people with scientific pretensions to meddle with Christians so much.

    The Christian and the materialist world views are totally different. The Christian worldview is based on God’s perspective while the scientific one is a worldly one.

    God uses the literal sometimes to help convey the spiritual symbolically in the pages of the Bible but if you take the Bible too literally then you miss out on the spiritual messages.

    The great mystery of the Bible is spiritual birth. How can you experience it if you can’t take direction from God but allow this world to meddle with your thought processes.

    Scientific detachment could be keeping a lot of people from achieving their own spiritual birth which is higher social evolution.

    Science has been used by evil people to abort their own spiritual births and promote spiritual abortion in others, too.

    But how can a scientist know when his methods are not God’s?

    Birth is a mystery. Should the spiritually ignorant be allowed to meddle, define and control a process they are ignorant of and incapable of bringing about without Jesus, our Deliverer’s, assistance.

    If you failed to realize salvation which is spiritual birth and regeneration then you need to go back to the drawing board and learn everything the right way which is God’s way and stop meddling with other people’s spiritual births.

    A scientific worldview might make you a high risk spiritual birth because you are using and devoting everyone of your resources against God instead of cooperatively working with Him and letting Him turn you into a new creation.

    If people want God’s New over the world’s old evil creation pattern then really who has the right to meddle with another person’s social development course onto a higher plane in this lifetime.

    If you want to be biblically ignorant which is spiritually illiterate then stay that way but don’t interfere with other people’s social progress that is evilly manipulative and self serving.

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  7. Brent Hurst says:

    You know when the river becomes too congested with fishermen, the fish probably just move down stream. And then the fishermen start complaining there are no fish. Its a sad day on the Apologetia River.

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