Have We Lost the Message of the New Testament?

By Mikel Del Rosario

Lost the Plot?

Have we somehow lost the message of the New Testament through irreparable corruptions of the text? That’s what some people wonder when the conversation turns to the issue of textual variants—differences in the biblical manuscripts we’ve discovered over the years.

Have We Lost the Message of the New Testament?

Maybe you’ve got a friend or a co-worker who tends to be pretty skeptical of the Bible right from the get-go. For many like them, the issues surrounding the Bible can make it tough to read it for themselves and give it a fair hearing. For example, people who saw Bart Ehrman on the Cobert Report or read his books might come away doubting that the text of the New Testament is still intact after all these years.

Today, I still hear well-meaning believers say we’ve just got to “give people the Bible.” But more and more, I see the need to engage the tough questions about why we should take the Bible seriously. So I wanted to share this video with you. It’s Darrell Bock, Ben Witherington, and Dan Wallace talking about textual variants in the New Testament.

What do Textual Variants Really Mean?

I’m honored to say I studied Greek under Dr. Wallace at Dallas Theological Seminary. At this DTS event, he answers the questions, “Are there really hundreds of thousands of textual differences in our New Testament manuscripts?” and “so what?” In other words, what do all these numbers really mean?

We Haven’t Lost the Message

Check out these four categories of textual variants and see why even 400,000 differences don’t need to shake our faith. The first two categories won’t help anyone come up with a new conspiracy theory about how the church has been secretly changing the Bible over the years. But as Wallace said, it might cure your insomnia.

  1. Most textual variants are just spelling differences

Ever seen the word “color” spelled “colour” in a book? You probably wouldn’t be surprised to see a young kid spell it, “culler,” or something like that. Whether it’s an alternate spelling or an actual spelling error, it’s still pretty obvious what they mean. When it comes to the New Testament, the first and largest category is made up of spelling differences, accounting for over 75% of all textual variants.

  1. Many textual variants are synonyms, word order differences and stuff you can’t translate

The next biggest category is all about synonyms (different words that basically mean the same thing) and stuff like word order (which makes little difference in Greek) or articles with proper nouns. For example, Greek writers could use the definite article before people’s names (like “The Jesus”). In this case, whether or not the word “the” shows up before Jesus’ name makes no difference; you can’t even translate it into English!

  1. Some textual variants would have made a difference if they weren’t so late to the game

The third largest category is made up of variants that would have made a difference in the meaning of the text in our Bibles if they showed up earlier in the manuscript tradition. The thing is, these differences show up hundreds of years after Jesus’ time and so it’s pretty unlikely that they tell us anything about what the original documents really said. Another way to say this is that the more recent differences just tell us about how some copyists ended up changing the text.

  1. A few textual variants actually do make a difference…but none mess with any core doctrines

It’s true. There are real questions about the authenticity of some of the words and sentences in the New Testament. And that’s what the fourth category is about: Variants that actually do make a difference in what the text says and possibly represent the original readings of the text. But here’s the thing: None of them call any core doctrines into question. Not one.

I’ve looked into this for myself so please don’t let anyone tell you this is just the tip of the iceberg. These kinds of things represent less than 1% of all textual variants in the New Testament.

About The One Percent:

New Testament Textual Variants that Matter Most

We need to be honest and admit that, at least where our current scholarship is at, there are some good questions about a few parts of the New Testament. For example, most scholars believe the story about the woman caught in adultery wasn’t in the original text of the gospels. It actually shows up in different places in some manuscripts, including the margins or at the end of a page, almost like scribes who wanted to preserve the story didn’t know where they should be writing it down. But what kind of difference does this make? I like how Darrell Bock answers this question:

“What is impacted is whether or not a particular passage teaches a particular point. But in the big scheme of things, there is no fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith that is impacted by this one percent.”

Most people don’t know that even Bart Ehrman himself actually agrees with this in print. He mentions this in the question and answer section of Misquoting Jesus (p.252):

…essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.

The Number of Textual Variants is Only One Part of the Story

To me, it seems misleading and unfair to say there are between 300,000 and 400,000 textual variants in the New Testament manuscripts we have today and leave it at that.

We’ve got so many variants because we’ve got so many New Testament manuscripts. If all we had were one codex with all the books of the New Testament in it, we wouldn’t have any variants!

Look, having almost 6,000 manuscripts—and not just one or even a dozen ancient, handwritten documents—is a very good thing because it can help us have more confidence in the readings which best represent the text of the original books of the New Testament. So the number of textual variants is only one part of the story.

Conclusion

The overwhelming majority of these textual variants don’t change the meaning of the text. No core doctrine of the Christian faith is called into question by any textual differences in the New Testament. None.

Instead of making us suspicious that we’ve lost the message, studying the text of the New Testament gives us confidence that the message has been faithfully preserved.

 


Original Blog Source: http://bit.ly/2p82RdB

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208 replies
  1. Brent Hurst says:

    We have not lost the basic text, but we have lost an understanding of the Spiritual realities beneath it. The church today, through the mind of the flesh, teach the legalistic doctrine of Substitutional Theology.
    .
    In this Doctrine man assumes himself to be eternal in his created Adamic nature, i.e. immortal soul, and thus salvation is a legal arrangement that man must make with God so as to AVOID the eternal Pain of Hell.
    .
    “Grace” as they use the term, is simply the OFFER from God to avoid such a painful situation, and “Faith”, instead of being giving by God as Revelation as been downgraded to be a virtue of man that he might “believe” in the divinity of Christ, His offer, etc…
    .
    What has been lost is the ability to see and understand the REALity of the Spirit, whereby our created Adamic nature is temporal by design, doomed for destruction, the second death, the destruction of the soul, and the Salvation that is offered to man is the pouring out of this Spirit through Christ that we might, having been born of this second Adam’s offering, become actual children of the Father.
    .
    Christians today affirm many doctrinal statements about the Spiritual birth and so forth, but there is no substance beneath such affirmations. Substitutional Theology is incompatible with the reality of the Spiritual Birth, the “Assumption” of the immortal soul being foremost. Since they consider themselves immortal (Eternal) already, they simply have no need to receive the eternal life offered by Christ by way of His Spirit. Christians today might have the bible, but they do not believe what it says.
    .
    The function of their disbelief is simple, all the mind needs to do is classify one factual statement as a metaphor or analogy, and then classify an analogical statement as if it is factual. Spiritual Birth becomes a metaphor for changing ones belief system, and “imputation” or “adoption”, which were meant to describe “Aspects” of what it means to be born of God, become the sum and totality despite the fact that such are LEGALISTIC functions.
    .
    Now why does man think in such a way, what blinds a man so that his values are skewed so he cannot belief what the scripture say, it is the mind of the flesh, our “Subjective” experience throughout our lives in the physical body place us in a duality between Pleasure and Pain, and this subjective reality is superimposed upon the scriptures as we read them. Thus, ultimately, our doctrine expresses this Pain and Pleasure scenario in a Hell (ultimate Pain) and a Heaven (ultimate Pleasure). The Life and Death, existence and non-existence, that was placed before Adam or Noah, or Sodom, or Israel, is traded in so that our flesh might be satisfied with the hope of avoiding pain, but a true disciple picks up his cross also.
    .
    The Apologists here, as well as most all Christian churches, from what I have heard and seen, have also lost the understanding of the Spirit, not because of variations in textual translations, but in Spiritual sight as they see themselves existing in a more real form that God (Spirit), having been “conditioned” by this present world. A Christianity that possesses only Doctrine is as lukewarm as one can get.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Dear Brent:
      .
      You can of course provide Translation, Chapter and Verse from The Holy Bible as the inerrant WORD of GOD to confirm all of your above thoughts in a straight forward point by point presentation. Then we can confirm what you are saying ourselves.

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Substitutional Theology is incompatible with the reality of the Spiritual Birth”
      .
      Romans 3:21-26 21 But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22 And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26 He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
      .
      John 1:12-18 12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’” 16 From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

      Reply
  2. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Mark,
    .
    You didn’t believe it the first time you read it in the Bible, or the second, third or fourth, I doubt you will if I simply repeat it.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Dear Brent:
      .
      “You didn’t believe it the first time you read it in the Bible, or the second, third or fourth, I doubt you will if I simply repeat it.”
      .
      You KNOW nothing of me personally. As there is NOT a single Bible verse but only your personal opinion in any of your above statement I am well within my rights as a fellow Christian believer to ask you to explain it. Again in a straightforward point by point manner with Translation, Chapter, and Verse to support your position. As you have stated other places already it is present throughout this should be easy for you to do. Maybe I have missed or misunderstood something important.
      .
      2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
      .
      .
      This is the second time I have asked you a straightforward question that you have NOT answered. Not a good show of faith by you to a fellow believer.

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “I doubt you will if I simply repeat it.”
      .
      I am not asking you to repeat anything I am asking you to support your position by clearly showing that it is supported by Scripture from The Holy Bible. You have said that it is clearly present throughout so this should NOT be an issue for you to do. Just quote Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse.
      .
      1 Corinthians Chapter 13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body,a but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6 Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

      Reply
  3. Brent Hurst says:

    Types of Trolls “”https://www.lifewire.com/types-of-internet-trolls-3485894″””
    .
    01
    of 10

    The Insult Troll
    .
    The insult troll is a pure hater, plain and simple. And they don’t even really have to have a reason to hate or insult someone. These types of trolls will often pick on everyone and anyone – calling them names, accusing them of certain things, doing anything they can to get a negative emotional response from them – just because they can. In many cases, this type of trolling can become so severe that it can lead to or be considered a serious form of cyberbullying.

    02
    of 10

    The Persistent Debate Troll
    This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they’re right, and everyone else is wrong. You’ll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they’re always determined to have the last word – continuing to comment until that other user gives up.

    03
    of 10

    The Grammar and Spellcheck Troll
    You know this type of troll. They’re the people who always have to tell other users that they have misspelled words and grammar mistakes. Even when they do it by simply commenting with the corrected word behind an asterisk symbol, it’s pretty much never a welcomed comment to any discussion. Some of them even use a commenter’s spelling and grammar mistakes as an excuse to insult them.

    04
    of 10

    The Forever Offended Troll
    When controversial topics are discussed online, they’re bound to offend someone. That’s normal. But then there are the types of trolls who can take a piece of content – often times it’s a joke, a parody or something sarcastic – and turn on the digital waterworks. They’re experts at taking humorous pieces of content and turning them into an argument by playing the victim. People really do get upset by some of the strangest things said and done online.
    05
    of 10

    The Show-Off, Know-it-All Or Blabbermouth Troll
    A close relative to the persistent debate troll, the show-off or blabbermouth troll is a person who doesn’t necessarily like to participate in arguments but does love to share his opinion in extreme detail, even spreading rumors and secrets in some cases. Think of that one family member or friend you know who just loves to hear his own voice. That’s the Internet equivalent of the show-off or know-it-all or blabbermouth troll. They love to have long discussions and write lots of paragraphs about whatever they know, whether anyone reads it or not.
    06
    of 10

    The Profanity and All-Caps Troll
    Unlike some of the more intelligent trolls like the debate troll, the grammar troll and the blabbermouth troll, the profanity and all-caps troll is the guy who has nothing really of value to add to the discussion, spewing only F-bombs and other curse words with his caps lock button left on. In many cases, these types of trolls are just bored kids looking for something to do without needing to put too much thought or effort into anything. On the other side of the screen, they’re often harmless.
    07
    of 10

    The One Word Only Troll
    There’s always that one contributor to a Facebook status update, a forum thread, and Instagram photo, a Tumblr post or any other form of social posting who just says “lol” or “what” or “k” or “yes” or “no.” They’re certainly far from the worst type of troll you meet online, but when a serious or detailed topic is being discussed, their one-word replies are just a nuisance to all who are trying add value and follow the discussion.
    08
    of 10

    The Exaggeration Troll
    Exaggeration trolls can sometimes be a combination of know-it-alls, the offended and even debate trolls. They know how to take any topic or problem and completely blow it out of proportion. Some of them actually try to do it to be funny, and sometimes they succeed, while others do it just to be annoying. They rarely ever contribute any real value to a discussion and often bring up problems and issues that may arguably be unrelated to what’s being discussed.
    09
    of 10

    The Off Topic Troll
    It’s pretty hard not to hate that guy who posts something completely off topic in any type of social community discussion. It can be even worse when that person succeeds in shifting the topic and everyone ends up talking about whatever irrelevant thing that he posted. You see it all the time online – in the comments of Facebook posts, in threaded YouTube comments, on Twitter and literally anywhere there’re active discussions happening.
    10
    of 10

    The Greedy Spammer Troll
    Last but not least, there’s the dreaded spammer troll. This it the troll who truly could not care less about your post or discussion and is only posting to benefit himself. He wants you to check out his page, buy from his link, use his coupon code or download his free ebook. These trolls also include all those users you see littering discussions on Twitter and Instagram and every other social network with “follow me!!!” posts. “””””””
    .
    As a Christian I understood years ago I could not be good before God, but I could be truthful. The mind is a very deceitful thing, with very little effort it can add of subtract value (merit, importance) to anything. A man who does not possess the tendency for smoking or drinking can feel superior to those to whom do possess such a weakness, ultimately attributing greater value to the sins of which others are assailed by while simply minimizing the value of their own shortcomings.
    .
    This is the mystery of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that a man, within his own mind, with the ability to manipulate knowledge, its value or the weight of its merit, can thereby adjust their own true worth. So do men, Christian or Atheists and all those in between, create a story where they are good, better, superior, whatever it is they desire to be.
    .
    Perhaps self deception can make one’s life a bit more comfortable, after all who wants to see the truth of themselves and just how petty they can be. We shift blame, project, make comparisons (envy), creating a story that suits our own needs.
    .
    But those who for truth, whether they are saved or not, whether it validates them or not, but merely for the sake of truth itself, only these will find substance to their lives. Lies, stories, anything that is not of truth will evaporate with the light of reality, for man to have the eyes to see he must first desire to see for the natural state of man is foolishness and blindness, children who never truly grow up but hide their immaturity in the complexities of life.
    .
    As Emerson once said, “what you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you are saying”, so people can hide in their darkness among those others who share their own darkness, story tellers feel obligated to believe the stories of others, but it is a mistake to believe every man has chosen the same path. The path of life and light, whether one finds it at the heart of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, is the path of the Spirit of God. As God is the sum and substance of the Infinite realm of existence, so is truth the sum and substance of our level of reality. If we not seek the truth of this world, how can we see that truth which is eternal in nature.
    .
    This is the heart of a true disciple, not to follow doctrines, but to seek that which is truly living, the truth that is all around us, it is a truth that does not hide, rather it is man, in his shame, that is always hiding from the truth. The surrendering of a true Christian is not to surrender to another belief system, but to surrender to the nakedness of his own being as he comes into the light.
    .
    And so the scriptures state that a man who judges himself can not be judged by any other man, for he alone knows himself as he is, his own error and his own nothingness. Then and only then does God and truth become everything, while everything else becomes nothing.

    Reply
  4. Susan says:

    i wish more attention were given to key word translation errors like olam, aion, Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus. These errors bother me more because they lead to doctrinal error.

    It bothers me more than any textual criticism does.

    You can tell by the Bible as a whole when you read it that it was written by God using men as his instrument/pen.

    But Christianity has been guilty of tolerating some translation errors for some time now.

    Apparently the Gentiles have had more problems protecting the text than the ancient Hebrews did.

    The universalist Christians have been pointing out these translation errors for centuries and getting treated like stepchildren by mainstream Christianity for this attempt to correct it but I guess that is just the nature of the false denominationalist spirit in the Church: the righteous will be persecuted. Sometimes in their own ranks by the very people who claim to be God’s family.

    Very few people know the ancient languages and among the few that do there has been a
    conspiracy of silence covering up
    the error rather than a full check and disclosure of
    the truth in the traditional
    Berean way.

    If the word aion doesn’t mean eternal
    then there is no eternal torment doctrine in the Bible.

    THe Greeks used the word aidios not aion for eternal as Lee Salisbu y explains in his essay on this Bible mistranslation.

    So why do the translators refuse to
    correct the translations so that some want new Bible translations?

    Why would a translator allow a false interpretation to control interpretation when word meaning is definitive of the meaning?

    Thanks for reading and check those key word meanings if you want to know the doctrinal truth as God originally meant it.

    The Hebrews has corrupted many godly ideas by the time Jesus showed up and Christian’s have the nerve to think we got everything right?

    Have the humility to check the texts and bible translations against a Young’s LIteral Translation of the Bible and you might rethink the
    eternal torment position when you see olam and aion are not translated literally into eternity but mean age of the ages. An age is a period of limited not unending duration.

    Reply
  5. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,

    One of the mistranslations concerns Hades, as in the rich man and Lazarus, that is translated “Hell” which is reserved for Gehenna. Up until a few years ago in Strong’s concordance under Hades “hell” was at the bottom of the list (7 or 8) and was clearly marked as a metaphorical term. But in the past few years this distinction has disappeared.
    .
    It has always been clear, even in Judaism, that the world of the dead had two divisions, Hades or Sheol spoke of the entirety of that realm while within it was the Garden of Eden, Paradise, termed that actually refer to a walled off or protected area, or also as the bosom of Abraham. If one were to die today they would arrive or awake within one of these two divisions.
    .
    Gehenna, Hell, refers to the Lake of Fire as the second death. IF Hades were Hell then we have a serious logical problem as Hades is cast into this lake of fire and is destroyed. The doctrine of the Church now has Hell being thrown into Hell to be destroyed.
    .
    The theologians and their brother apologists show that they are either intellectually lazy to the point of absolute neglect, perhaps stick stuck in a Sunday school’s children theology as if you die and go to Heaven or Hell as if we have reached our final destination, as if the universe revolved around us and our own death, OR they are just purely dishonest as they know the difference but continue to tout whichever doctrine brings in the most people, money, attention, etc…
    .
    It is actually quite simple, if we die today we wake up in Hades (Sheol), or if one belongs to God and Christ they are carried into the Garden of Eden, Paradise, Bosom of Abraham. In these places we all await the consummation of the Creation where fire (Hell) will destroy the Earth as well as the Heavens (including Hades), and then those who belong to God shall enter into that City which descends from above, the New Jerusalem.
    .
    In the biblical context the duality presented to us is one of LIfe and Death, eternally so. It is a context played out through scripture from the Angel of Death at Passover, to the flood, to Sodom, to the second death.
    .
    Again, I propose the reason why men cannot see this is that they are still trapped in the subjective influence of the flesh that experiences the world through the eyes of pain and pleasure, thus Heaven is eternal pleasure for them instead of eternal life. And Hell is eternal pain. And thus the sacrifice of Christ becomes a legal get out of Hell free card.
    .
    Now here the kicker, the unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as they consider themselves already eternal, even as created souls, substitutional theology is all they need, so as to AVOID pain. They do not SEE not understand the Christ died so as to pour out His Spirit, that if we share in this Eternal Spirit of His, we actually RECIEVE eternal life. What the scriptures state as a fact, their minds can only perceive as metaphorical, as if the Spiritual Birth is simply our confession and then choosing to follow a new path in life. Furthermore, because they have CHOSEN to follow Christ, they can glory in their OWN WILL as it was a choice they made, and so it is a virtue they think they possess.
    .
    And for the term “ages and ages”, this does refer to the eternal, but if the verdict and punishment is DEATH, especially that of the soul which is the seat of self consciousness to begin with, so it is that is an ETERNAL state, never to rise again, never to awake, never more to exist, eternally dead.

    Reply
  6. Mark Heavlin says:

    Dear Brent and Susan:
    .
    I have been asking for some time now but no one seems to be able to supply a verse as an answer to the following question:
    .
    Is there a verse anywhere in The Bible that in any way that could remotely be interpreted as anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 as ever getting out of the lake of fire?
    .
    If so please provide Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse so that it may be verified.
    .
    Revelation 20:14-15 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      I am not a nswering you further Mark. You didn’t check the opposite position when I explained to you this is in part a word meaning issue.

      If all you do is quote scripture back and can’t consult a bible scholar like Hanson who knows the ancient languages then your mind is made up and you aren’t really interested in ascertaining the truth.

      I read Hanson and he is a very careful translator. I haven’t seen anyone refute his etymology of
      aion yet and Young’s Literal
      Translation confirms it.

      The Word meaning is essential in interpretation.

      If aion in Greek doesn’t mean eternal then eternal torment is not to be found in the Bible and we
      ought to stop talking about it as
      If it is a fact.

      Why does the literal have to dominate in a symbolic book like the Bible? Because someone indoctrinated you?

      Use your own mind and check the word meanings.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “Why does the literal have to dominate in a symbolic book like the Bible?
        Because someone indoctrinated you?”
        .
        Nope, I tend to take Jesus at His Word.
        .
        KJV – Revelation 1:1-2 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
        .
        These two verses seem LITERAL to me .
        Verse 1 seems like a chain of custody to me. From God to Jesus Christ to his angel to John.
        Verse 2 seems like John is saying this is what Jesus told him and what he saw.
        .
        You got some symbolic interpretation that you know of for these two verses?
        .
        .
        Moving on to Chapter 20 also in Revelation.
        .
        Whole chapter looks like events that are unfolding that John is writing down as they happen.
        .
        You got some symbolic interpretation that you know of for this chapter?
        .
        .
        Great resource: http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/
        .
        I can tell you that in looking at Revelation 20:14-15 that those two verses are nearly identical from the Codex Sinaiticus all the way thru the versions available in the Greek section of “biblehub.com”.
        .
        .
        Now I am off to research “aion”.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          The book of Revelation is very hard to understand today because of the Reformation. During the Reformation many Protestant leaders called the pope the antichrist so in order to stop that charge by the Protestants a Jesuit priest came up with the futuristic interpretation of prophecy which later got adopted into Protestantism through the writings of John Nelson Darby.

          If you notice Revelation say in the beginning of chapter 1 that these things are soon to pass. So Revelation has been happening throughout history but the futurists would have us all believe that Revelation is all about the future.

          We got futurism from the Counter Reformation but hardly anyone knows that today because you have to get with people who investigate church history to know things like that.

          Eschatology and the afterlife are some of the hardest things to know in the Bible and each has multiple schools and positions.

          I don’t know why anyone would dare argue the scriptures without a mastery of them but everyone it does. Only in politics and religion do
          you get all the crazy people that come out to argue with only their own opinions and hardly check or know what God says at all. They think they do but they don’t and we let them spout off all their errors when we the Bible specifically says every word and deed of a person will be judged by God.

          So now I am trying to learn to let my words be few. There is more that I don’t know than I know so why waste time arguing when I could use it for study and research and be truly informed by God instead of surfing the erroneous opinions of people who usually never even double check what is told them.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “The book of Revelation is very hard to understand today because of the Reformation. During the Reformation many Protestant leaders called the pope the antichrist so in order to stop that charge by the Protestants a Jesuit priest came up with the futuristic interpretation of prophecy which later got adopted into Protestantism through the writings of John Nelson Darby.”
            .
            You say that Protestantism adopted futuristic interpretation through the writings of John Nelson Darby yet The Bible has remained virtually unchanged since it was written.
            Not really a surprise there as it is the inerrant WORD of GOD. Personally, I am trusting and following The Bible. Just finished checking Revelation 1:1-2 and those two verses are nearly identical from the Codex Sinaiticus all the way thru the versions available in the Greek section of “biblehub.com” and so are the English translations.
            .
            .
            “So Revelation has been happening throughout history but the futurists would have us all believe that Revelation is all about the future.”
            .
            Revelation was all about the future when it was given to John on the island of Patmos. Some of that time has obviously passed and some is just as obviously yet to come. With a proper interpretation we as Christians can KNOW the season of The Lord’s Coming but not the day or hour.
            .
            Matthew 24:36-37 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    • Brent Hurst says:

      Dear Mark,
      .
      “”””””Is there a verse anywhere in The Bible that in any way that could remotely be interpreted as anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 as ever getting out of the lake of fire?”””””
      .
      No. The fire is all consuming, it will destroy all of Creation, both of the Heavens and the Earth, of soul and of body, down to the very elements themselves. Hades (Sheol), as the heavenly abode of the dead, the after life, is likewise destroyed, even Death itself as all things that are created, all that can be shaken, is destroyed.
      .
      The only thing that will not be destroyed because it can no longer be destroyed are the souls that have received the eternal Spirit of the Father through Christ. Being ONE in Him, sharing in His divine nature, so death and destruction cannot touch them as they are in the Ark of the body of Christ.
      .
      As far as verse, chapter etc… all doctrines, even false doctrine are built upon chapters and verses, it is not that the verses themselves are corrupt, rather we read them with corrupt thinking. Isaiah 28 speaks of this. God is not satisfied with the “knowledge” we possess, the correct doctrine, the correct BELIEFS, God is satisfied when He see His own Holy nature within us, having received such from Christ. God will have no contact with sin, He does not simply forgive us vicariously, He MAKES US HOLY by His Spirit.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        Dear Brent,
        .
        “No. The fire is all consuming, it will destroy all of Creation, both of the Heavens and the Earth, of soul and of body, down to the very elements themselves. Hades (Sheol), as the heavenly abode of the dead, the after life, is likewise destroyed, even Death itself as all things that are created, all that can be shaken, is destroyed.”
        .
        So my question is how does what you say above compare to the verse below? The beast is generally considered to be the Antichrist ( a man ) and the false prophet ( also a man ) is the Antichrist high priest. Because it specifically says tormented day and night forever and ever. Your version and Revelation’s version seem to be at odds with each other.
        .
        Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

        Reply
        • Brent Hurst says:

          Dear Mark,
          .
          .
          “”””””””So my question is how does what you say above compare to the verse below? The beast is generally considered to be the Antichrist ( a man ) and the false prophet ( also a man ) is the Antichrist high priest. Because it specifically says tormented day and night forever and ever. Your version and Revelation’s version seem to be at odds with each other.
          .
          Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”””””””””

          Sorry, I missed this post. I suppose what you mean by “Generally considered” is that some theologians are giving it their best guess. In your own evaluation here you express it is not clear. So the fact that my version “seems” to be at odds seems a little vague
          .
          The gospel are the gospels Mark, everything you need to understand you should be able to find in the rest of the scriptures. You yourself see the vagueness here and yet can you not see how the church has build a solid doctrine upon these highly symbolic references.
          .
          Jesus over and over uses clear terms “destroyed, perished, etc…” but all these examples, even the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah are cast aside as if metaphors so the church can extract one vague reference, from a highly symbolic book, a book no one probably really understands, to create a FEAR situation so the church can grow itself, probably when the catholic church in Rome was becoming a “power structure/organization”
          .
          Is there any chance you can worship God simply because He is God, not simply to avoid a painful situation. Even as a Christian Truth should be focused on rather than the avoidance of pain because all true Christians suffer persecution in the world. But the FLESH is driven by its avoidance of pain and so this reference is used by the church to build a theology where those who are LOST will suffer eternally in a fiery torment.
          .
          And the “unspoken” antithesis to this is that Christians will enjoy unlimited pleasure in Heaven. The true Spirit comes to bring LIFE, true LIFE as that which has descended from the Father, and that LIFE is the Spirit which we receive by way of Christ.
          .
          Think about this, though it is true Christ would speak to His disciples about Gehenna, when He spoke to the crowds it was by way of parable, He did not use threats not did He concern Himself with the overall majority, CHRIST CAME TO CALL HIS OWN. As for the dead, He said, let the dead bury the dead. Those who are Elected are already chosen, whether they realize it at present or not, they will come and they cannot be lost because God has called them and His word will accomplish exactly what He intends it to.
          .
          Look at what Jesus did and said and stop being distracted by the flowing symbology of a book clearly no one has fully grasped, With Reason consider, if torment such as this was the fate that salvation was meant to avoid, why would it be so vague and hidden in the last book to be written and added to the scriptures.
          .
          And I apologize that you might even be a young Christian as many start out being fascinated by this book, and I am sending you back to a main steam church who seem to only understand Christ through their flesh and not the Spirit. Doctrinally though you have two choices here
          .
          As a soul, you can believe the serpent, namely that you will never die, in which case all you need from God as a salvation is the get out of Hell free card, purchased by YOUR own virtue as you WILL to believe in Christ, and thus legally you are redeemed.
          .
          Or as a soul, you can believe God, namely from dust you were created and to dust you will return, and realize the life that is within you is insufficient (Finite) and thus you need the Eternal Spirit that was poured out when Christ was crucified.
          .
          A legal waiver, a life giving Spirit,
          .
          Perhaps you might ask yourself, “when and where did the lost eat from the Tree of LIfe whereby they might live forever to begin with”. I mean when you were saved and you received “Eternal Life” what do you think you received, eternal pleasure??? Because obviously you also believe those who are lost live eternally also???
          .
          True Faith is revelation of higher realities, it should not be an excuse to suspend the rules of logic or grammar.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Think about this, though it is true Christ would speak to His disciples about Gehenna, when He spoke to the crowds it was by way of parable, He did not use threats”
            .
            When you say parables you mean like this one? All red letter as Jesus is speaking.
            .
            Matthew 25:31- 31 And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit upon His throne of glory. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And indeed He will set the sheep on His right hand, and the goats on His left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, those being blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I hungered, and you gave Me to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungering, and fed You? Or thirsting, and gave You to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? 39 And when did we see You ailing or in prison, and came to You?’ 40 And the King answering, will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did it to Me.’ 41 Then also He will say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I hungered, and you gave to Me nothing to eat; and I thirsted, and You gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and You did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.”
            .
            .
            Revelation 13:18 Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is six hundred sixty-six.
            .
            So are you going to actually address the differences of Scripture versus your opinion or just wave your hands at it and dismiss it as no one can clearly understand the Scripture?

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            Arrrrgggghhhhh, I hate my own mistakes.
            .
            Above should be Matthew 25:31-46. I missed the”46″ part.

          • Susan says:

            You ought to read the All Saved paper on becomingone.org because you have not aligned the scriptures to account for the thousand year period.

            The Bible is a very detailed book and unless you assemble a lot of scriptures then it could cause you to have a truncated view of God’s plan.

  7. Susan says:

    Google and read Creation’s Jubilee, Brent.

    Or google and read the short essay “Eternal punishment: Is it really of God?” On auburn.edu by Lee Salisbury.

    As Salisbury wrote in the essay above:
    My appeal to you, the reader, is to distinguish between the letter of the word and the spirit of the word. Examine your own heart as to the nature of God’s love and judgments.

    2 Corinthians 3:6
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Why does God have to give us discernment? Isn’t it partly to avoid the literal technicalities that violate the spirit?

    When we’re too literal we could miss the spiritual element in things.

    It seems to me people are so bound up in the literal they can’t discern the spiritual so they can’t see the forest through the trees.

    God is love. His mercy is over all
    His works and justice is not co-equal with mercy in God’s mind. Mercy informs justice so we get
    rehabilitation of sinners not punishment.

    God sat on the mercy seat over the ark.

    Reply
    • Brent Hurst says:

      Susan,.
      .
      “”””””Google and read Creation’s Jubilee, Brent.””””””
      .
      This may be hard for you to understand but I am not lost or searching, I have no need (anymore) to read the speculations of other men.
      .
      Furthermore whereas I have pushed for the reality of the Spiritual Birth, and now you are speaking of taking the bible too literally, do you really expect me to deny God’s Spirit for a metaphorical interpretation. A true Spiritual interpretation often is to believe the scriptures are saying exactly what they are saying. To do this one must first be aware of their own mind and how it substitutes metaphors already.
      .
      If you think “You must be born of Spirit” MEANS anything other that exactly what it says, then that is what Christ meant in that we are slow to believe. But if your intellectual CONCEPT of Spirit does not rise above floating sensation when drinking alcohol, or the EMOTIONAL feeling as we are swept away in the spirit of the music, then you have not allowed God the REALity of His own Being,
      .
      God IS Spirit, and His children are those born of that same Spirit, you do not see it, you cannot hold it in your hand, Christ gave us the Eucharist so that in the process of eating and drinking we might come to see it better. But still the Christ is looking only for a SUBSTITUTION, one to die in their place, rather than FOR them as His blood, the Spirit, was poured out for us.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Take care Brent. I am not arguing with you as you have the Holy Spirit as your tutor and how do I know if h takes us al down the same path or not. He knows what you need better than I do.

        Take care and God bless.

        Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Susan,
      .
      “Creation’s Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E Jones.
      .
      This book is dedicated to those who are called to the Ministry of the Conciliation as Ambassadors of Christ, to tell the world the good news of the Restoration of All Things.”
      .
      .
      I really wish I would have found the dedication of this book before I bothered to even attempt to read some of it.
      This book is basically UNREADABLE because every chapter the author says I am going to prove “X” in this chapter. Begins down a path that looks like he may be trying to do what he said then gets side tracked into blind alley’s. Adds in that there is much more evidence but doesn’t want to bore the reader waves his hands and goes down another dark alley. Then concludes the chapter with a preview of the next chapter. Starts the next chapter with the statement having proven “X” in the previous chapter; when in reality he did NO such thing. When this happens repeatedly I stopped reading. My conclusion was that something is just NOT quite right about what he is saying.
      .
      Having found the dedication to the book confirmed my suspicions.
      THE GOOD NEWS that Christians are actually called to tell the world is this:
      .
      JESUS CHRIST the Only Begotten SON of GOD came to this Earth and was born of a Virgin
      Lived a sinless life
      Suffered and Died by Crucifixion as an Atonement Sacrifice for the entire world
      Resurrected on the 3rd day
      That thru acceptance of this FREE GIFT a person might have ETERNAL LIFE
      Ascended to Heaven and sitting at the right hand of GOD the FATHER
      Returning to Judge the world
      .
      This is the GOOD NEWS!
      .
      John 3:9-18 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

      Reply
  8. Susan says:

    1 John 4:18 King James Version (KJV)

    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    Reply
  9. Susan says:

    Google The Origin of Futurism by George Burnside and read it, Mark. The little horn that came up in place of the big horn is the papacy coming up in the place of the Roman Empire.

    A historical interpretation of prophecy has always been the way of prophecy. You know a prophecy and prophet is true if it comes to pass as Jesus said.

    The Jesuits under Ribera changed around prophecy to protect the pope that many of the people leading the Reformation identified as the antichrist. This is a matter of history so check the history on it.

    Rivera threw out a lot of history when he gave a new interpretation but history verifies prophecy like Jesus said so the historical view is more accurate than the futurist sensationalist view.

    If you knew what some of the popes did you would probably rethink futurism. We do have them to thank for the Inquisition don’t we?

    Read Henry Halley’s Wicked Popes! essay.

    There was actually one pope who made statements that indicate he thought he outranked God but I can’t remember his name without looking it up.

    I almost fell for futurism myself but so glad I found people who actually spent a lot of time cross examining and checking doctrine and history.

    Peace be with you!

    Reply
      • Susan Tan says:

        We’re done discussing this subject. I came across that site years ago and wrote a letter to Dan Corner correcting him. You should read what his doctrinal critics say about him on the web.

        You we’re suppose to check aion but you didn’t. But that is ok. You do as you think is right.

        But we’re done talking on this because I think you are wrong and uninformed.

        I tried to inform you but you are set in your ways.

        If you want to believe in the pagan doctrine of eternal torment that is up to you.
        But I refuse to let a fear doctrine rule my mind when I know God is love.

        I believe we all do have a choice on which spirits we entertain in our hearts and I cannot believe we tolerate such a vengeful doctrine as eternal torment when we can examine the record of all the popes missteps.

        I could be wrong. I don’t claim 100 percent accuracy on eschatology or afterlife doctrine but I know God is not a man to change HIs mind and said it was never in His mind to put someone in a fire in Jeremiah 32.

        Did you know some people’s minds are so doctrinally twisted they think unsaved babies go into hell fire but unsaved babies have not reached an age of accountability. David said he would see his unsaved baby in heaven. How is David getting to heaven when he lived ahead of Jesus’ saving grace? No one is questioning that David is saved are they.

        By the responses I receive by died in the wool eternal torment believing Christians I believe most are incapable of re-examining this belief because that is what fear does: mentally incapacitates people.

        Didn’t God say not to be afraid over and over so what happened? The antichrist popes taught billions of people a fear doctrine through institutionalized religion for 1400 years and that lie goes unexamined and unchallenged today except by the best students of the Bible.

        We’re not arguing this any more now I see you are set in your way.

        I am set in a different way so let’s agree to disagree.

        I am not going to reexamine a belief I have already examined to serve the whims of people who assume their own is right without examination. That is Thessalonian. I believe a Berean can examine everything and if you can’t examine a word meaning then you definitely are assuming without inspecting.

        Could inspecting everything change your whole world? It could but that is what truth seeking is. Life changing.

        I find eternal torment to be a petty minded doctrine. They say Jerome was petty minded and that Augustine borrowed it from Manichaeism. Manicheanism is the pagan group he belonged to before becoming Christian.

        Doctrine passes through the human mind watering it but we are never to assume that the people that preceded us got everything right and I no longer do that.

        So peace be with you if you can find it entertaining a fear doctrine in your head. What are you afraid of offending God by changing your mind? Then why did God build your mind with the capacity to think and change.

        I am off the eternal torment bus driven by a fear demon forever.

        I have other more important things to think about and I am sick and tired of Christians toting this demon around not having the courage to re-examine things.

        Symbology is hard and not everyone in the church is equally good at it or checking the record. That is why we have the crazy new school of Futurism popping up scaring people with the antichrist boogeyman all over the place when the Reformers said long ago the antichrist is in Rome.

        Is the antichrist really going to go to Jerusalem? No he is going to seek to get into the church in a leadership position where he can mess with the doctrine of all believers and this has been going on since early times as John the Apostle said. The antichrist were seeking the sheep’s pasture to meddle with the sheep a long, long time ago. Satan tried to derail Christ by tempting him and he wouldn’t set himself in a high place over them?

        Read the Greek. Anti in it’s ancient meaning means “in place of” though we use it to mean “against” today.

        I never sought to be in a high church position. I used to study politics but no longer because I see happening in high places what Lord Acton said “Power corrupts and absolute power absolutely.”

        The church got in bed with the Roman Empire in Rome after ten official Roman persecutions and those power seeking people seeking to wield the authority of God preceded to change everything. These were sweeping changes to and many let them get away with it because they lied and locked everything up in a foreign language so only the pope and his hand selected interpreters had access to the Word of God.

        That is how error gets embedded across time.

        A Christian is really nobody if he won’t examine the scriptures and think for himself. If he won’t use his own mind then he has self abdicated using his own reason and that is the definition of being a milk fed Christian and the scriptures say we are not to be milkfed but to have the mind of Christ.

        I feel I am further along now and not going back to being milk fed.
        I am still sorting many things out but I am not allowing a fear doctrine to be placed by an antichrist back in my own head.

        I know fear demons exist. I have seen people who have all sorts of paranoid irrational fears and it either incapacitated them or makes them act strangely. Like Hitler’s. Nazism was one big fear demon trip that Hitler charismatically transferred to the Germans because they weren’t discerning enough to protect themselves by thinking for themselves. He caught them at their weakest point in history and taught them a lie reinforced by fear so they would learn to accept the lie and Hitler used bait and switch tactics.

        So may His grace abound to you! Enough so that you can evict that fear demon like an overcomer and follow Christ without any man made or demonic fears troubling you at all.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          So much confusion in what you said here that I will not even begin to try to correct all of the illogical thought except for this. You reference Jeremiah 32 I can find none of what you think you are referencing in that chapter. Perhaps you misquoted the chapter? Otherwise, please provide Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse so I can verify what you are saying.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            5 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

          • Susan says:

            I provided the verse below but I see you have a critical spirit so stop responding to my posts. You don’t seem to have the teachable spirit either and I am not battling anyone with a critical, unteachable spirit. Don’t ever describe me as confused when you can’t locate a verse and understand the plain language.

            Believers go thru a baptism of fire. Is that fire literal or spiritual.

            Nevermind I am too illogical to care what your critical, unteachable spirit’s opinion is.

            Have a great day! Bye.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “I could be wrong. I don’t claim 100 percent accuracy on eschatology or afterlife doctrine but I know God is not a man to change HIs mind and said it was never in His mind to put someone in a fire in Jeremiah 32.”
            .
            Is Verse 35 not 5.
            .
            Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
            .
            Baal – Is an idol/false god worshipped by many of the people including the Canaanites at the time of Jeremiah. Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baal-ancient-deity
            .
            Molech – Is an idol/false god worshipped by the Ammonites at the time of Jeremiah.
            Source:http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10937-moloch-molech
            .
            .
            Verse 35 specifically is talking about the disgusting practice of sacrificing of human children by burning them to honor Molech. This had already been outlawed to the Jewish people in Leviticus Chapter 20. As a matter of fact the offending party was to be stoned. Part of the reason GOD allowed the Kingdom of Judah to be destroyed by the Babylonians was because of this practice.
            .
            Leviticus 20: 2-5 2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. 4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: 5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
            .
            .
            So in conclusion; we see that Jeremiah 32:35 has nothing to do with the eternal judgement of men and everything to do with GOD’s anger with the Kingdom of Judah for allowing the disgusting pagan sacrifice of children to a false god – Molech.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            @Susan – i have a reply that has been delayed by the “awaiting moderation” bug. With a time date stamp one minute after your reply on: March 30, 2018 at 12:24 am.
            .
            Be interesting to see how long it takes to post now.

    • Mark Heavlin says:

      I think I already mentioned this but the 4 verses or so that I have checked from the CODEX SINAITICUS written in Greek in the 4th century AD is nearly identical to the other nine ( 9 ) versions of Greek that I see at “biblehub.com” . So I fail to see how what some Jesuit supposedly did to try and twist things around even applies. The GREEK appears to be preserved from the earliest until now. Obviously, whoever the pope was during the Reformation was NOT the Antichrist or we would be living in The Millenium Kingodm of Jesus. Much of Revelation is yet to come.
      .
      Go check out the CODEX SINAITICUS site. Well worth the time.
      .
      .
      Link to the CODEX SINAITICUS: http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/
      .
      Link to bible Hub homepage: http://www.biblehub.com/

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        I may some day but Futurism is a product of Ribera’s pen. If you could read Jones historical explanation side by side with the Book of Revelation you would see more clearly.

        Most people don’t love history like Jones. i used to be a history buff myself so I understand the Importance of putting it side-by-side with prophecy to see the prophecies confirmed throughout history though part of the book of Revelation is still to come.

        We are having major signs in the heavens right now confirming that Christ could come any day.

        Watch “warning 8 supersigns in the heavens” on YouTube. The heavenly signs are lining up with Jewish feast days and it is simply amazing. If anybody wants evidence they ought to go watch that video.

        Reply
  10. Susan Tan says:

    From a Wikipedia entry on the historicity view:

    Historicism, a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which associates biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identifies symbolic beings with historical persons or societies, has been applied to the Book of Revelation by many writers. The Historicist view follows a straight line of continuous fulfillment of prophecy which starts in Daniel’s time and goes through John’s writing of the Book of Revelation all the way to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.[1]

    One of the most influential rhetorical aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication.[2] The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism, were brought about to oppose this interpretation[3][4][5][6] that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church.[7]

    Reply
  11. Brent Hurst says:

    Hey Mark,.
    .
    I made a reply to a post of yours I missed, but since I “replied” directly to your post its back up the column a ways.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Dear Brent,
      .
      Yep, saw it and responded back also above. Agreed this format can be frustrating in keeping track of responses in multiple locations in even the same thread. I currently have a response to Susan that hit the ” awaiting moderation” bug.
      .
      Let’s continue the conversation above and see if we can each learn something.

      Reply
  12. Susan says:

    Mark you missed the whole point above. Putting someone in a literal fire is a disgusting pagan practice and the God of the Bible would have nothing to do with it.

    Who cares about the five. It is a copy and paste error and you’re being the overly critical spelling check troll for even mentioning it.

    Once again you did not do what you were suppose to do which was check the ancient word meanings and none of links I mentioned with the verses showing God intends to save every person on the planet was checked by you.

    You are perpetrating a deception on this site with an overly narrow interpretation of the Jeremiah verse above.

    And you are not my teacher or mentor. I rejected the eternal torment lie on rational grounds a long time ago.

    There is no reason for an all powerful person to torture anyone. He doesn’t even need free will for us to love Him. He is God and can do anything including overcome a human being’s will as the Bible shows He did multiple times. Because He is patient with us doesn’t mean He is a respecter of our sinful wills. It just means He respects the individual boundaries that delineate personhood.
    We actually invite God into our being when we receive the Holy Spirit. What are we doing at absolute surrender time but surrendering our old sinful wills for His?

    God touched the disciples with tongues of fire. Was that literal fire or some kind of spiritual energy that in their day the people of the Bible had no other way to describe but as fire. The literal is often used in the Bible to convey the spiritual but all people are not equally adept at symbolic interpretation.

    Eternal torment is an abomination foisted on Christianity by a man, the pope, elected by men.
    The pope is clearly not God’s elect or God would have raised him up personally like he did Christ or David.

    The Christians when they allowed the papacy to rule made the same mistake the Israelites did when they asked for a king when they already had God.

    Granted establishing the papacy did end the 10 official Roman persecutions but that had something to do with human politics also.

    Where is Satan going to seek to go? Into a leadership position in God’s church and we let him get in the church when we refuse to study the scriptures for ourselves and use our own minds of Christ. We’re the children of God and as disciples we are suppose to learn how to wield Christ’s authority on Earth. Not abdicate spiritual ruler ship and Christ’s authority to a carnal person who cardinals (people) elected.

    I will respond to you when you stop acting like a milk fed quoting Bible verses and using them like talisman to ward off evil.

    I don’t need a talisman. God gave me the gift of the Spirit and the mind of Christ and expects me to use them so this evil world does not dominate me.

    Eternal torment is an evil lie so I denounce it. If you haven’t the spiritual curiosity and courage to look at all the works that expose that lie then so be it. You allowed the evil thinking of unspiritual people to limit your spiritual growth.

    So don’t presume to mentor me from a position of ignorance. I have the Holy Spirit as my tutor and He led me to all the really Berean teachers on the Bible who post on the internet.

    I always valued a good education even when I was growing up in a poor family and my mother told me we were too poor for me to go to college. But God made a way for me to go several times and I am without any college debt today at all.

    But on the Scriptural training He allowed me to seek out and come in contact with some of the very best teachers of His Word.

    If you refuse to understand all positions then how can you with no ancient language expertise claim to know God’s position?

    You’re presumptuous attempting to correct another person who knows all the positions and made a spiritual decision different from your own which is only based on one literal interpretation and deliberately ignores other more spiritual ones.

    God is preparing his children to reign and sit on the throne with Christ. How are his children going to do that if they are afraid of using their own mind and locating the truth for themselves?

    Take care. Have a blessed day. Hope this helps.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Mark you missed the whole point above. Putting someone in a literal fire is a disgusting pagan practice and the God of the Bible would have nothing to do with it.”
      .
      No it is you who misses the point of Jeremiah 32:35. Sacrificing your children to a false god by any means is disgusting and was forbidden to the Jewish people by the GOD of the Old Testament. Punishable by death by stoning. And you also miss the point that this verse has nothing to do with eternal punishment of the “unrighteous”.
      .
      .
      “Who cares about the five. It is a copy and paste error and you’re being the overly critical spelling check troll for even mentioning it.”
      .
      Attention to the finest details is important. It took a long time to even get you to quote the verse to start with and then you get the verse number wrong? Don’t think the number details are important? Then send me a check for $35 dollars and I will send it back to you with your version of “35” i.e. $5 dollars.
      .
      .
      “You are perpetrating a deception on this site with an overly narrow interpretation of the Jeremiah verse above.”
      .
      Then you need to go read all of the commentaries that are written by Bible scholars on that verse as well if you do NOT believe me. Because they certainly do NOT agree with you. You have told me that you have studied your “universalism” belief extensively and found it to be true. Yet you put this verse in Jeremiah forward with a false meaning as proof of “universalism”. Something that none of the commentaries even mention in relation to this verse?
      .
      .
      “Once again you did not do what you were suppose to do which was check the ancient word meanings”
      .
      You have no idea how much studying I have been doing in the background. And when I have finished my research I will share it with you. Just as I have when I finished researching another of your offering of “Creation’s Jubilee”. Which it turns out is unreadable and the dedication of the book is clearly NOT Biblical.
      .
      .
      “And you are not my teacher or mentor.”
      .
      Nor you mine. But I will say that yours are not looking very good at the moment.
      .
      .
      “Eternal torment is an abomination foisted on Christianity by a man, the pope, elected by men.”
      .

      The original Greek text shows differently. You continually attack the Pope and the Catholic church. Which I do not understand as this has nothing to do with this conversation. I am not currently a Catholic, nor have I ever been a Catholic, nor will I ever be a Catholic. So all of your discussion concerning the Catholic church is of no concern to me or this discussion really.
      .
      .
      “Eternal torment is an evil lie so I denounce it. If you haven’t the spiritual curiosity and courage to look at all the works that expose that lie then so be it. You allowed the evil thinking of unspiritual people to limit your spiritual growth.”
      .
      Yep, sure a belief that you say you have studied EXTENSIVELY and yet when I ask you for Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse you continually refer me to works by men and NOT The Holy Bible. This is ILLOGICAL. As to the last part. You are clueless as to my background because I have NOT shared any of it with you. So to make comments like you just did is clearly wrong.
      .
      .
      “So don’t presume to mentor me from a position of ignorance.”
      .
      My position is NOT from ignorance. Your position and opinion to the meaning of Jeremiah 32:35 is not supported by either the historical account or the commentaries on that verse and therefore I find it to be wrong. If something can NOT be proven from Scripture then it is NOT TRUE.
      .
      1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
      .
      .
      “You’re presumptuous attempting to correct another person who knows all the positions and made a spiritual decision different from your own which is only based on one literal interpretation and deliberately ignores other more spiritual ones.”
      .
      Nope, I am only pointing out that for one who says they have “studied” that your view on this verse is completely wrong and unsupported by any of the commentaries or The Bible.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Let’s agree to disagree. You missed the point of the Jeremiah passage Mark. Yes, the passage is what you said but it is even more than what you wrote. It is revealing about God’s character.

        If God won’t tolerate people being put into a fire to Molech then he is not going to tolerate it for the great majority of people that walked on this earth. There are billions of people who died not knowing Jesus.

        You are mistaken about Jones work. It is easy to google and read and it’s not dedicated to anybody. You never checked it.

        I never said spiritual birth wasn’t important. It is and it could have important eternal implications that is hard for us to grasp.

        That still doesn’t mean for those who didn’t get Jesus in this life time that God is going to allow them to be tortured forever.

        You also never checked on aion.

        You just want to win to appear to win an argument. Which is superficial. You never looked at the details when the Bible specifically say Jesus is the Savior of all men in more than one place in the Bible.

        If eternal torment were true then the Bible would have to state that Jesus is the savior of all believers not the savior of all men.

        This is not undercut the importance of being born again. That is very important but that is a different topic from whether or not God will save everyone.

        I am no longer interested in the eternal torment lie so don’t defend it to me.

        When God swears by Himself to perform something like the salvation of the world that is good enough for me.

        Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible. Some people have inferred it erroneously. All the Bible speaks about is God’s will and it will be done.

        I am no longer exchanging post with you because your mind is closed. That’s all. Find someone else to talk to you.

        I’m not even reading your posts anymore and what are you doing around apologetics? Apologetics requires being exposed to a lot of positions and reading them in detail to be able to analyze them and refute them but you didn’t even look at what I told you.

        So stop posting in this thread to me. There is no true exchange of ideas because you refused to check anything. I don’t know why you didn’t do it but you didn’t so you are arguing from a position of ignorance.

        Look at PArDes on wiki some time. It is the Jewish exegetical belief that the Bible is a multiple level book.

        In my opinion the literalist are caught on the first level maybe because they either can’t understand symbology very well mentally or refuse to let God enlighten them. They have made a false idol out of the misinterpretation that was communicated to them. Fear is communicable.

        But God said be not afraid hundreds of times in the Bible.

        But all you do is force the words to match your interpretation instead of checking the words which all interpretation is based on.

        So now you have this doctrinal error you are fighting to defend.

        I am not arguing with you further because you are flat out wrong and probably living in so much fear that no one could correct you. It would take an act of God to.

        Have a blessed day. And the next time someone tells you they don’t believe in eternal torment and can show you why rationally and scripturally don’t meddle with them because that is what you were doing. Meddling from a position of ignorance.

        Happy Easter!

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “It is revealing about God’s character.”
          .
          In that he takes exception to people sacrificing their children to false gods by any means sure.
          That it has anything in the least to do with eternal punishment – not so much. Revelation 20:15 among many other verses proves that.
          .
          .
          “You are mistaken about Jones work.”
          .
          You can NOT seriously be this ridiculously blinded as to think I made the text below up can you ?
          .
          “Creation’s Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E Jones.
          .
          This book is dedicated to those who are called to the Ministry of the Conciliation as Ambassadors of Christ, to tell the world the good news of the Restoration of All Things.”
          .
          Well if you are then I suggest you go check the following link:
          https://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/
          .
          And I will stand by my assessment of the book as a whole as unreadable as stated previously as well.
          .
          .
          “That still doesn’t mean for those who didn’t get Jesus in this life time that God is going to allow them to be tortured forever.”
          .
          I keep asking you if you know a verse that shows that anyone ever gets out of the “lake of fire” from Revelation 20:15 because I don’t know of one. You have as yet failed to provide even a single attempt that is not taken OUT OF CONTEXT.
          .
          .
          “You also never checked on aion.”
          .
          Asked and answered already. But I will answer it again here. you have NO idea how much research I am doing in the background. And I will share that research with you when I have finished it to my satisfaction; until that time you may of course continue with your unfounded assertions to the contrary.
          .
          .
          “I am no longer interested in the eternal torment lie so don’t defend it to me.”
          .
          Your continued assertion that eternal torment is a lie does NOT of course make the statement true. And for the record I have NOT even begun to defend that position. I have as to date refuted every verse that you have said supports “universalism”.
          .
          .
          “Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible.”
          .
          Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
          .
          So tell me if free will is not even mentioned in The Bible: Did Eve and then Adam NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Do you have NO comprehension of how ridiculous and untenable your position has become?
          .
          .
          “I am no longer exchanging post with you because your mind is closed.”
          .
          It would seem that you are the one who has closed your mind to the possibility that you could be wrong about “universalism”. I have continually asked you to supply proof including Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse which to date you have only supplied things taken completely OUT OF CONTEXT.
          .
          .
          “I don’t know why you didn’t do it but you didn’t so you are arguing from a position of ignorance.”
          .
          Your continued assertion that I am arguing from a position of ignorance in no way makes the statement true. I would hold that the evidence shows your are incorrect on your assertion.
          I can tell you that I am NOT arguing from a position of ignorance. At every turn I have referred you to Scripture and/or multiple commentaries on particular Scriptures that clearly show that you are taking it OUT OF CONTEXT.
          .
          .
          “So now you have this doctrinal error you are fighting to defend.”
          .
          You can try and flip this around to show that I am incorrect here but it is you who have continually taken Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT and not me. if I am wrong here then it should be easy to prove so – prove it then.
          .
          .
          “And the next time someone tells you they don’t believe in eternal torment and can show you why rationally and scripturally don’t meddle with them because that is what you were doing.”
          .
          You have as yet failed to show either rationally or scriptually that your position of “universalism” is true.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            God says to be a seeker. There is no burden of proof on me.

            Ask God for revelation. I tried to help you obtain some but instead I got an objection.

            So go ask Him.

  13. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Mark,
    .
    Yeah, bad software, I just brought it down instead of replying up there.
    .
    “”””””””46 And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.”””””””
    .
    “””””””So are you going to actually address the differences of Scripture versus your opinion or just wave your hands at it and dismiss it as no one can clearly understand the Scripture?””””””
    .
    Ahh! looky there, gonna drop me in my own hole. (Smile), No problem Mark. Of course part of the problem we have here is preconceived definitions due to the way prevalent and traditional doctrines have influenced our brains. But lets take a look,
    .
    “Eternal Punishment verses Eternal Life”
    .
    Now, following your logic, as we look at the juxtaposition between what should be two opposing extremes, you see punishment as consciousness torment, eternally so, which makes eternal life what? Life here can’t actually mean life can it, I mean the opposite of torment is pleasure, and here you have the tormented living eternally so you have assigned the attribute of eternal existence to those who are punished. The only opposing context you present is the context of pleasure of pain, certainly not life or death as in existence and non-existence since consciousness is applied to both.
    .
    Now perhaps you wish to CHEAT logic, with what a lot of theologians do, namely “separation”, as if the lost are eternally separated from God and thus automatically are in torment, (knowing what they might have had) and the righteous get to be in God’s presence eternally, enjoying what, maybe bliss. Drat! there’s that pleasure thing sneaking in. Anyway, separation, is this what death actually means?
    .
    Then what would a person who is dead be “separated” from other than LIFE. In our present dimension, if someone dies, they are no more, finito, Gone forever, eternally departed, apparently as we do not see people coming back (besides maybe Christ). They are either alive, whereby they are conscious of this world, or they are dead, and NO MORE conscious of this world.
    .
    Now you can throw in the “after life” and say they are not really non existent, but this context only concerns the death of the body, which by the way is dissolved into nothingness, iron, carbon, dust to dust. But the Second Death that refers to the soul itself, the seat of consciousness, there is no other level to be transported to, that’s as deep as we go.
    .
    Now please don’t bring in the spirit, as in body , mind, and spirit, Paul used this term once for those who are born also from God’s Spirit, the Adamic man, like Adam, was two part, body and soul.
    .
    Are you beginning to see how many acrobatic jumps I have to make to believe in this eternal torment? Sure, if I just blindly accepted a doctrine interpretation and denied all sense of logic it would be easy. Perhaps I might even incur to myself some virtue for believing something which is basically illogical, as if I understood some basic secret code the bible uses when speaking of life and death. But now lets look at my understanding
    .
    “Eternal Punishment verses eternal Life”
    .
    Eternal Life, self evident, one simply lives forever, life goes on, etc…
    .
    Eternal punishment, to cease to exist, eternally so, no coming back, no consciousness, NO ETERNAL LIFE.
    .
    The fact is, there is nothing in the word “eternal” that implies consciousness, to receive a death penalty, from which there is no awakening, is absolutely an eternal punishment. Furthermore the Greek word for punishment regards a “verdict” and has nothing to do with torture.
    .
    PLUS, I have a clean juxtaposition as Life and death, existence and non-existence, consciousness and no-consciousness, stand as polar opposites. Plus I have the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Angel of Death that slew the first born of Egypt, where there is those who were saved alive, and those who perished, died, etc…
    .
    What I “wave away” is illogic, interpretations based upon doctrine rather than the common and agreeable use of language. I can believe the scriptures as simply as a child, receive Christ, and receive eternal life, for the wages of sin is death. Its not difficult.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      It looks like you are an annihilationist, Brent. But you need to read the Word more closely because you logicized to the wrong conclusion. God’s will is prevailing not men’s.

      Look up these verses or read David Baughman’s online essay “Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation” for a quicker re-cap of them.

      Ezekiel 16:53
      First Corinthian’s 15: 21-26
      First Timothy 4:30
      John 3:17
      John 12:32

      Those are just a few of the verses that show God’s intent to save everyone.

      You should google and read “Aion-Aionios” by Hanson because this word has been translated by the King James Bible as both “age” and “eternal”. That is a contradiction. A word cannot be an age which is a period of time of limited duration and also mean eternal which is a time period of unlimited duration. For one word to contain both meetings is to render it meaningless.

      So this Greek word has to mean one or the other and Hanson shows that it was used to mean age by the ancient Greeks at the time of usage when the biblical writers used this word in the scriptures.

      If the ancient writers had meant to say eternal they would never have used aion. They would have used aidios which means eternal but they didn’t so the KGV and other Bible translations of this word as eternal are mistranslations by men.

      Mark is interpreting the symbolic too literally and you are logicizing from incomplete information and a mistranslation.

      That’s why I have repeatedly mentioned the names of works for you to read to see this.

      This should not be a battle of wills. This is a matter of biblical scholarship. So if you’re interested look at Hanson’s essay. Look at Baughman and research more yourself.

      We all make mistakes so we need to have the humility to research and meditate on the scriptures.

      God is all powerful. Why does He have to allow anyone to destroy themselves for forever?

      He doesn’t have to but a lot of people have let other people’s rationalizations of scripture trick them into believing He will.

      So don’t logicize before you check more verses because you missed something.

      Thanks for reading, Brent! God bless!

      Reply
      • Brent Hurst says:

        Dear Susan,
        .
        Those who have never really received Life, cannot lose it. The life that we have as created beings is not and never has been the true Life. Let the dead bury the dead.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Let’s just agree to disagree. We are at an impasse and this format does not allow the conveyance of detailed ideas very well. That’s why I cite works for people to read.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Let’s just agree to disagree.”
            .
            Nope, I refuse to submit to a draw when you have failed at every turn to provide even a single Scripture Verse to prove your point.
            .
            .
            “We are at an impasse and this format does not allow the conveyance of detailed ideas very well.”
            .
            It comes as no surprise to me that you are at an impasse to prove “universalism” is true . And while I will agree with you that the format is difficult it is by no means impossible.
            .
            .
            “That’s why I cite works for people to read.”
            .
            Personally, I would prefer if you just stick to Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse. because at the end of the day if what some author wrote disagrees with what The Bible says then it is a “NO-BRAINER” as to which is correct and which is wrong.

      • Mark Heavlin says:

        Ezekiel 16:53 – deals with GOD’s “Judgement on Jerusalem” go read the commentaries. It does NOT deal with “Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation”. It also does NOT deal with Judgement at the end of time.
        .
        .
        First Corinthian’s 15: 21-26 – Deals with the “order of resurrection” of all people. It does NOT deal with “Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation”. It also does NOT deal with Judgement at the end of time.
        .
        .
        1 Timothy 4:10 – Deals with the “difference between believers and unbelievers”. You should go and read the commentaries. At least one of which directly rebukes the “theories of universalism”.
        .
        .
        John 3:17 – No need to read the commentaries here except that you may want to for your own benefit and learning. Your position of “universalism” is clearly REFUTED by the very next verse. Unless of course you are going to tell me that “condemned” means the same thing as “reconciliation”.
        .
        John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
        .
        .
        John 12:32 – By far the most subtle of the four passages you have quoted. But again the commentaries disagree with you opinion that these are proof of “universalism”. Jesus here is talking about the manner of his death and NOT about ” Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation”.
        .
        John 12:30-33 30 In response, Jesus said, “This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.
        .
        .
        “Mark is interpreting the symbolic too literally”
        .
        This is blatantly WRONG. I interpret what is literal as just that literal; and what is symbolic as symbolic.
        .
        .
        “This should not be a battle of wills. This is a matter of biblical scholarship.”
        .
        It is NOT a battle of wills it is a battle over the correct interpretation of Scripture and TRUTH. Which so far you are clearly taking out of context for the four passages you used above as well as Jeremiah 32:35. And yet again you continually refer us to works other than The Holy Bible to try and prove your point. If “universalism” is true then prove it by using Verses from The Bible which are NOT taken out of context.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Mark this post was not addressed to you. I may have made a typo on Ezekiel. I do not have a big keyboard to type on so I am prone to typos and that is one reason not to argue in this format. If you read down in that chapter though it says God will reinstate Sodom and Gomorrah one day.

          You are nitpicking on the internet not checking correctly the reference works I listed repeatedly.

          The Bible says that God kills and makes alive.

          The importance of the works was to get a greater revelation and see more accurately more details of God’s plan but you decided to cherry pick verses to support your view.

          This is the Young’s Literal Translation of 3:16-18 which does not use the word eternal and which you did not check.

          John 3:16-18Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

          16 for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
          17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
          18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

          See that: age-during.

          An age can be long or short but it is of limited duration.

          It is possible unbelievers will lose a thousand years of life before God raises them for judgment but why raise them to throw them into a literal fire again when He can purify them?

          I am so sick of people ignoring the scope of sin for free will conjecture. Some people don’t have sound minds to make an accuate decision for or against Jesus but free will glosses all over that fact.

          I don’t have an adequate computer to sit here and drag up thousands of verses for you to communicate the right idea. That is why I sent you to the right works but you wouldn’t go. You are close minded and afraid to reason along with God and have dedicated yourself to defending a scriptural interpretive mistake that comes from some limited fearful mind of man.

          You have limited the awesomeness of God’s love and power with your interpretation.

          A mistake can be transmitted across time that is why the ancient Hebrew scribes were painstaking when they transcribed the Torah. Much more painstaking than the modern-day Christians.

          There were popes that even dared to tamper with the scriptures to reinforce their own authority. Chris Pinto has a video on YouTube about it and yet we let them get away with forming and teaching doctrine and the literal hell fire nonsense.

          I am not battling the scriptures in an inferior format with someone too afraid to do the necessary research. Fear might be disposing you to confirmation bias. I never had a fear of God hurting me for checking the Scriptures and I’m not starting now to please you or anybody else who calls himself a Christian.

          Eternal torment is not from a loving or kind mind so it is not from God.

          Thanks for reading. Too bad you couldn’t put the work in for God ascertaining the truth that you spent defending a lie.

          I spent years researching and reading the universalists and you never read.

          They have all the verses and no other Christian group assembles them as well to see all of God’s plan then they do.

          But the petty small minded who refuse to see God’s perspective in favor of small minded man’s always lie about them and give them a black eye but the Bible says the righteous will be persecuted.

          The pope persecuted the Reformation leaders. He put Tyndale on the stake. Now does that sound Christian to you.

          Goodbye have fun cherry picking scriptures to support someone else’s faulty view never meditating yourself as God says we are to do.

          I tried to help you obtain a better big picture view of God and all you did was argue. That is not studying to be an approved man.

          Hope God opens your mind. You can always ask Him to instead of assuming it is.

          Love opens.
          Fear closes.

          Reply
  14. Susan says:

    Jesus Died for All. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time”

    Read the NM13 paper entitled “All Saved” on the becomingone.org site.

    I am not arguing this with anyone. I am getting the doctrinal correction to as many people as possible. The rest is in God’s hands because He gives revelation to whom He chooses and I am not going to battle with anyone that He did not reveal this truth to when they could have sought revelation from God themselves instead of being satisfied with the false interpretations of men.
    Why settle for what people say when you can ask God Himself in prayer, read the scriptures yourself and use your own mind.

    The popes tried to control revelation like they alone owned it. But they don’t. God is the Revealer of Truth and some people will follow His Light wherever it takes them and some people won’t. They let fear and false idols and other things stop them.

    Reply
  15. Susan says:

    Poor workman? Maybe.

    Romans 14:4, Berean Study Bible

    Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    But at least I appreciate the importance a mistranslated word can have in shaping doctrine.
    You don’t seem to care at all.

    The Young’s Literal translation corrected your view above and you didn’t even notice and thank me. Instead you got your sticks and stones out.

    Deuteronomy 20:13, King James Version
    Thou shalt not kill.

    Deuteronomy 20:13, Young’s Literal translation
    13 `Thou dost not murder.

    See the translation error in Deuteronomy?

    Murder and kill have two different meanings.

    Aion and aidios have two different meanings.

    You can not just interpret a foreign word any way you want to.

    Can I say blue for rouge when translating French into English? Of course not. Rouge means red in French.

    You can post scripture all day long but if it’s contains a mistranslated word then the meaning is changed whether or not it appears on the surface as right and whether or not you agree with what it says.

    Also you can post a scripture without realizing there are many more relevant scriptures giving a more fully developed view but because you weren’t looking at all the scriptures you settled for a less detailed view.

    I am not a poor workman because I am not your puppet to do things you demand. Nor do I have to recreate works that have already been written in detail by many others explaining a matter.

    If you want to know then you seek those people out. I just did you the courtesy of naming some that were easily available. I never promised to provide you with an elaborate discourse on the scriptures especially not in this format.

    Now that you are corrected on the translation error I won’t be returning to the thread.

    Have a blessed day.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Deuteronomy 20:13, King James Version
      Thou shalt not kill.
      Deuteronomy 20:13, Young’s Literal translation
      13 `Thou dost not murder.
      See the translation error in Deuteronomy?”
      .
      No, sorry I do NOT see the translation error here. Probably because once again the tool has failed the workman.
      Guess you thought I was kidding about proofreading being your friend if you only let it? The real “Deuteronomy 20:13” from both the King James and Young’s Literal are directly below.
      .
      Deuteronomy 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: ( KJV )
      .
      Deuteronomy 20:13 and Jehovah thy God hath given it into thy hand, and thou hast smitten every male of it by the mouth of the sword. ( YLT )

      .
      .
      “You can post scripture all day long but if it’s contains a mistranslated word then the meaning is changed whether or not it appears on the surface as right and whether or not you agree with what it says.”
      .
      You can post till the cows come home about translation errors on individual words but when all but one version translates it the same way which is correct? The single or the many? It is the height of arrogance and non-scholarship to assume that the many are wrong and only the single is correct. You act as though “universalism” is the mainstream and the mainstream is “universalism”.
      .
      .
      “The Young’s Literal translation corrected your view above and you didn’t even notice and thank me.”
      .
      Oh, I noticed what you did alright. Used a single version that disagrees with all of the other versions. What is there to thank you for in that? You labor under a confused spirit.
      .
      .
      “I am not a poor workman because I am not your puppet to do things you demand.”
      .
      I am demanding nothing from you. I only asked for proof of you position. Which you have failed miserably at providing unless of course you are going to count what you supplied that was OUT OF CONTEXT. I think your body of work here stands or falls by itself.
      .
      .
      “Now that you are corrected on the translation error I won’t be returning to the thread.”
      .
      Again, saying you have done something is NOT the same as actually having done it. You are again assuming that single interpretation is correct and everyone else got it wrong. Where is your proof? Every single verse that you have attempted to use to make your case has been used OUT OF CONTEXT. And when this is pointed out to you you wave your hands and make up some imaginary meaning that is NOT supported by a single one of the commentaries .

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      I am reprinting most of my one response from above because you completely ignored it and I would really like you to respond to it. Though I have this hunch that you will not because it proves most of what you have been saying is blatantly WRONG.
      .
      .
      “You are mistaken about Jones work.”
      .
      You can NOT seriously be this ridiculously blinded as to think I made the text below up can you ?
      .
      “Creation’s Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E Jones.
      .
      This book is dedicated to those who are called to the Ministry of the Conciliation as Ambassadors of Christ, to tell the world the good news of the Restoration of All Things.”
      .
      Well if you are then I suggest you go check the following link:
      https://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/
      .
      And I will stand by my assessment of the book as a whole as unreadable as stated previously as well.
      .
      .
      “That still doesn’t mean for those who didn’t get Jesus in this life time that God is going to allow them to be tortured forever.”
      .
      I keep asking you if you know a verse that shows that anyone ever gets out of the “lake of fire” from Revelation 20:15 because I don’t know of one. You have as yet failed to provide even a single attempt that is not taken OUT OF CONTEXT.
      .
      .
      “You also never checked on aion.”
      .
      Asked and answered already. But I will answer it again here. you have NO idea how much research I am doing in the background. And I will share that research with you when I have finished it to my satisfaction; until that time you may of course continue with your unfounded assertions to the contrary.
      .
      .
      “I am no longer interested in the eternal torment lie so don’t defend it to me.”
      .
      Your continued assertion that eternal torment is a lie does NOT of course make the statement true. And for the record I have NOT even begun to defend that position. I have as to date refuted every verse that you have said supports “universalism”.
      .
      .
      “Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible.”
      .
      Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
      .
      So tell me if free will is not even mentioned in The Bible: Did Eve and then Adam NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Do you have NO comprehension of how ridiculous and untenable your position has become?
      .
      .
      “I am no longer exchanging post with you because your mind is closed.”
      .
      It would seem that you are the one who has closed your mind to the possibility that you could be wrong about “universalism”. I have continually asked you to supply proof including Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse which to date you have only supplied things taken completely OUT OF CONTEXT.
      .
      .
      Hoping for some kind of response; betting on crickets.

      Reply
  16. Susan says:

    You have too many questions and make too many misstatements for me to correct them all.

    For instance, there is more than 1 literal translation of the Bible documenting the translation difference.

    But Christianity has been doctrinally deceived for a long time now and has turned a lie into tradition.

    We seem to lack for true reformers today. I had hoped someone in apologetics could see the error but they don’t.

    Since when did the number of people’s opinions control an interpretation?

    Interpretations are based on word meanings.

    You should stop arguing now and insulting people when it should be apparent that word meaning is critical in this issue.

    universalists have been taking this issue on for centuries but institutionalized religion and
    other factors have allow this false doctrine to
    continue.

    This is not that uncommon either. The Jehovah Witnesses have a counterfeit bible they call
    The New Translation Bible in which they change key words to deny Jesus’ deity.

    What is the Koran but someone attempting to
    change the Bible?

    I am done pointing these things out. You should have checked everything before quoting scripture. I know scripture. I have read the Bible and the whole context of the Bible is God’s will and divine nature.

    Man’s will will not overcome God’s will and the Bible says in Micah that God’s mercy will win out so why do Christians spin fear messages? Because they were taught wrong on this point of doctrine a long time ago and refuse to check and correct.

    But doctrine has to dovetail with God’s nature not popular opinion and God is a forgiven who taught us to love our enemies. Is he teaching us to
    be like Him or not?

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Man’s will will not overcome God’s will and the Bible says in Micah that God’s mercy will win out so why do Christians spin fear messages?”
      .
      Well I will say I see some improvement here. Now if you could please provide the Chapter and Verse then I can check it for myself to verify you are correct.

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “You have too many questions and make too many misstatements for me to correct them all.”
      .
      Well since you think that let’s say we start with just one item then OK ?
      .
      Susan: “You are mistaken about Jones work.”
      .
      Mark: “You can NOT seriously be this ridiculously blinded as to think I made the text below up can you ?”
      .
      “Creation’s Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E Jones.
      .
      This book is dedicated to those who are called to the Ministry of the Conciliation as Ambassadors of Christ, to tell the world the good news of the Restoration of All Things.”
      .
      Well if you are then I suggest you go check the following link:
      https://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/
      .
      And I will stand by my assessment of the book as a whole as unreadable as stated previously as well.
      .
      Having found the dedication to the book confirmed my suspicions.
      THE GOOD NEWS that Christians are actually called to tell the world is this:
      .
      JESUS CHRIST the Only Begotten SON of GOD came to this Earth and was born of a Virgin
      Lived a sinless life
      Suffered and Died by Crucifixion as an Atonement Sacrifice for the entire world
      Resurrected on the 3rd day
      That thru acceptance of this FREE GIFT a person might have ETERNAL LIFE
      Ascended to Heaven and sitting at the right hand of GOD the FATHER
      Returning to Judge the world
      .
      This is the GOOD NEWS!
      .
      .
      @Susan – Care to comment? As you have asserted another place that his book does NOT have a dedication?

      Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Or perhaps you would care to try this one item instead?
      .
      Susan: “Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible.”
      .
      Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
      .
      So tell me if free will is not even mentioned in The Bible: Did Eve and then Adam NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Do you have NO comprehension of how ridiculous and untenable your position has become?
      .
      @Susan – Care to comment about how Adam and Eve had NO free will?

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        If you had read the becomingone.org article All Saved paper NM 13 you would have already had the Micah passages.

        I don’t know what your point is about Jones but you did not read his work so I am no longer discussing this with you. You keep asking people to do your work. Creation’s Jubilee is a short book that points out the translation errors, explains the lake of fire and gives a lot of background behind the eternal torment doctrinal mistake.

        I just read an online article explaining that Augustine who many in theology circles venerate today allowed Platonism to color his interpretations. Jones explains in some of his works that God’s perspective is Hebraic not Platonism and perspective is key to understanding God’s Word.

        A quote from Augustine:

        “For it is wonderful how he who entered the service of the gospel
        in the first instance under the compulsion of bodily punishment,
        afterwards labored more in the gospel than all they who were
        called by word only; and he who was compelled by the greater
        influence of fear to love, displayed that perfect love
        which casts out fear.”

        Apparently Augustine came to approve torture for people who disagreed with the Church.

        You may want to do your own historical investigation of church brutality against universalists, etc. if you don’t like to check works I cite that contain the salient facts.

        Do your own research. The ministry is the ministry of conciliation as Paul explains in the New Testament so what is wrong with a work by a bible teacher being dedicated to them? I have no idea what your problem with that is.

        It bothers me when noted apologists like Tim Keller apologize for an Inquisition that all Christians are not responsible. So look at the history and actions.

        Eternal torment was used in the early church to coerce conversions but Christ never used a physical sword. The ancient Israelites had to resort to a physical sword because they were too afraid to ascend Mt Sinai with Moses to speak with God. So they received the law only. The Sword of the Spirit in a parallel to the Mt Sinai event was given in the upper room when tongues of fire descended on the apostles in the Book of Acts.

        Our weapons in this world aren’t physical since the Day of Pentecost. Our weapons are purely spiritual so why are Christians out scaring people with literal torment? Maybe they learned it from the carnal people in the church trying to be in authority and enforcing that authority with unChristlike means.

        I am not rationalizing Christian error any more. I know a lot of carnal people got into the papacy and messed with the Church. It was not uncommon for the second sons of nobility with no inheritance and no real vocation to enter the church and become priests without a calling. Imagine some of these fellows setting church doctrine while their more spiritual counterparts didn’t object. Several of the popes had children. They declared themselves infallible in 1870. There were a lot of problems in the Church. Luther did not go far enough reforming it.
        He missed the other biggest lie: that all are not saved. He addressed the grace for sale issue and finally split from Rome once he saw the pope as an antichrist but the eternal torment lie was harder for him to spot. Maybe his priestly training conditioned him not to see it.

        As Hanson mentions in another work if God ever intended eternal torment then why didn’t he tell Adam? Why diidn’t He mention it to Moses when He gave the law?

        Read the Abraham sacrifice passage. God promised by Himself to save this world and you think He can’t do it? He needs to coerce conversions? God doesn’t have to coerce anyone. He controls all the gifts and gives them when he decides to and even let’s us petition Him for them.

        Reply
  17. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Mark,
    .
    Don’t forget about me, I feel I’m getting buried beneath this you and Susan thing. And whats this about blaming my tools, are you trying to imply its my fault my hammer keeps hitting two inches to the left. I don’t see how, clearly my INTENT is to hit the nail, surely its the hammer that is missing. (smile)

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Now that is funny. My hammer when it misses seems to always find just the right spot to cause extreme pain to one of my digits. Oh to be so lucky as to be 2 inches to the left or right.
      .
      Yeah, I had that thought as well about our discussion getting buried by the “universalism” debate. Quite frankly, in some regards I really wish there were some verses that clearly showed that position as correct; then we would have never went down the rabbit hole as it were.
      .
      As it were I have been a world traveler via the internet over the last couple of days. Basel, Switzerland, The British Library, and even the Vatican as I continue my research into the “aion” part of the debate. Crash course in Greek and even some Latin; and to tell the truth the Greek I find very understandable. Which for me is pretty crazy – as I do not care for foreign languages. Must be the use of all those characters in Math, Science, and Engineering classes from all those years ago.

      Reply
  18. Susan Tan says:

    I meant earlier to be my final comment as I have new business to prepare for but since you insist on me putting up the verses rather than read them in the named links here they are below.

    As Tentmaker gives permission on it’s site to distribute it’s tract here is the one with the “all” verses endorsing the salvation of all men by our great King Jesus.

    Satan was beat on the Cross ending his illegal claim to all me but he does like to sow confusion doesn’t he?

    I hope any unbelievers will take note of the great depth of scholarship of the universal restorationists even though they have been tortured as heretics for it by the eternal tormentists over the centuries.
    But then that could be a lack of spiritual development on their part because Christ did say the righteous would be persecuted and in the Book of Luke Jesus says some believers will be striped.

    Here is the tract printed with public permission with some of the verses:

    Do You Believe All in the Bible?

    By Gary Amirault

    The early Christians of the first few centuries knew what the Greek word “ta panta” meant. It meant “all.” They took Scriptures listed below and believed what they said. To the early Christians, “all” meant “all.” This Greek word “ta panta” meant “all” in the Greek and it means “all” in the English. Unfortunately, we live in a time when man calls good, evil and evil, good. To the modern church, “all” does not mean “all.” As a matter of fact, “all” in many evangelical churches means “some” or “very few.” Below are listed a few of the many plain scriptures which no longer mean what they say. Should you decide to believe these plain Scriptures, you will find yourself among the “remnant.” The majority of the church has long since abandoned the simplicity and power of the “Original Good News.” The remnant will embrace perfect love and cast out fear and live in a new world. Now study these Scriptures in their proper context and see the full salvation of our wonderful Father. We realize a Scripture referring to all trees cannot be meant to imply all human beings. But if the Greek for all things includes both trees and human beings, we must then include human beings. Look at the following Scriptures through all of our Heavenly Father’s attributes, Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Justice beautifully and harmoniously clothe His nature which is Love. Then rejoice!

    1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?

    2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth. Will His desire come to pass?

    3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time. Are we judging God before due time?

    4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all. Will He succeed?

    5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will. Can your will overcome His?

    6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world. Can He be Savior of all without saving all?

    7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world. Why don’t we believe it?

    8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?

    9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created. Will He lose a part of His creation?

    10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live. The same all?

    11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live. Again, the same all?

    12) Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fulness of times. Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?

    13) Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

    14) 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit. See what I mean?

    15) Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved. But most Jews don’t believe yet!

    16) Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all. How plain can you get?

    17) Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people. Is there joy is “hell”?

    18) Heb 8:11,12 All will know God. How long, O Lord?

    19) Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come. Have we judged Him before the time?

    20) Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all. Experientially or prophetically?

    21) Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty. How much of creation?

    22) Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God. There’s that word “all” again.

    23) 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God. What for?

    24) Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy. Is “hell” mercy?

    25) Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God’s judgments are seen. Could His judgment be mercy?

    26) Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all. All?

    27) Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him. All into Him?

    28) Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things. Including “hell?”

    29) Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God. Including Satan?

    30) 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all. What does that mean?

    31) Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new. “All” made new?

    32) Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live. How many will hear?

    33) Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth. How will the “righteous” judge?

    34) 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire. How can fire save you?

    35) Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire. Including you?

    36) Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world. Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?

    37) 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all. Did He die in vain?

    38) Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father. What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)

    39) Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things. Does “things” include people?

    40) Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him. How many did the Father give Him?

    41) Jn 3:35 The Father gave Him all things. (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word “things” in the Greek.

    42) 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Jesus is Savior of all! Can’t seem to get away from that word “all.”

    43) Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. How far is “uttermost?”

    44) 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed. Including “lake of fire” which is “second death?”

    45) Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure. Does Old Testament agree with the New?

    46) Gen 12:3 All families of the earth will be blessed. Here comes that word “all” again.

    47) Dan 4:35 God’s will done in heaven and earth. What can defeat His will?

    48) Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God. Can any stay rebellious in “hell?”

    49) Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return. How can one return from “destruction?”

    50) Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations. All nations?

    51) Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive. Kills to bring life?

    52) Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts. “All” hearts, including men like “Hitler?”

    53) Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps. What about “free will?”

    54) Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God’s counsel stands. So much for “free will.”

    55) La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever. Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)

    56) Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house. “All” nations?

    57) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him. “All” nations!

    58) Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified. Including the wicked ones?

    59) Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God. Are you catching on?

    60) Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God. That sounds wondrous.

    61) Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things. I wish we would believe that.

    62) Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored. Really?

    63) Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate. Sounds impossible.

    64) Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!

    65) Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him. For what purpose?

    66) Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him. Praise His name!

    67) Ps 145:9 He is good to all. Including your worst enemies.

    68) Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works. Let’s start believing that.

    69) Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall. Who hasn’t fallen in sin?

    70) Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him. For “eternal torment?”

    71) Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people. And you are invited.

    72) Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to eternally torture his children with fire. Came from man’s mind.

    73) Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them. You can’t “chose” to follow Him.

    74) Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself. Amen!!!

    75) Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him. If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

    WHAT PLEASES OUR FATHER?

    This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires (“will have” in some translations) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time . . . (1 Tim 2:3-6). 1 John 4:14 tells us that the Father sent the Son to be Savior of the world. John 3:35 tells us that the Father has given all into Jesus’ hands. If it is the desire of the Father to save all and He has given Jesus all power and authority to do His will, why don’t we believe Him? “This is the will of the Father Who sent Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:39) The Father has given all into His hands. (John 3:35)

    The above Scriptures speak very plainly of the salvation of everyone born under the sun. So why doesn’t everyone simply believe these Scriptures and rejoice? There are three main reasons why. First, most people are vengeful. They do not want all to receive forgiveness. As racists always need someone to look down on, so also, some Christians cannot enjoy their salvation apart from seeing others being denied theirs. They do not want anyone hired at the last hour of the day receiving the same wages as themselves. They do not think this is fair. Second, and this is why it took me so long to clearly see this wonderful truth, is that many Bibles have been tainted with the pagan doctrines of the dark ages. Roman Catholicism absorbed every dark thought it came in contact with. The early reformators, who first brought the scriptures into everyday languages, were still deeply entrenched with the false doctrines of the dark ages. These doctrines found their way into the early Bibles which still have a strong effect on leading modern Bibles. As a result, there are still a few lingering passages grossly mistranslated in our Bibles. And last, but perhaps most important, power hungry leaders have found the doctrine of eternal torment most effective in holding the masses under their control. It was effective for ancient monarchs who held their kingdoms together with fear, and it is effective even today for modern tyrants, whether they be political, business, or religious. Many leading English Bibles actually teach all three main concepts of salvation, that is, eternal torment for many, annihilation for many, and the salvation of all mankind. All three cannot be true. Write for the booklets The Early Christian View of the Savior, The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail, the audio tapes entitled Power of a Four Letter Word (Aion), the Origin of the Word “Eternal,” and “Is the King James Bible Inerrant? This information will make it clear that when the Scriptures declare that “Love never fails” (1Cor 13), you can be assured His love will never fail anyone born under the sun.

    When John and James wanted to bring fire down on the heads of the Samaritans for not believing the Gospel, Jesus’ words to them are still appropriate for many church members: “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” Are these the words you will hear one day? There is still time to study, pray, and repent. (Luke 9:54-56))

    Reply
  19. Susan says:

    This might clarify more. I got it from mercifultruth.com.

    Ellicott’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment–life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered “eternal” does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

    Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless “eternal” is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of “endlessly existing,” and thus to be practically a synonym for “everlasting.” But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)

    Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor’s Works (vol. 3, p. 43): “Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting,” then adds, “The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period.”

    The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as “forever,” means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period.” Thus me olam does not mean “from eternity” but “of old” Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)

    Reply
  20. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Mark,
    .
    “”””””Yeah, I had that thought as well about our discussion getting buried by the “universalism” debate. Quite frankly, in some regards I really wish there were some verses that clearly showed that position as correct; then we would have never went down the rabbit hole as it were.”””””””
    .
    Rabbit hole? More like the abyss, Its one thing to debate a person and what verses they might bring forth, but when whole web sites are thrown at you as if you should put in 8 hours a day for the next two weeks to try to respond to every reference, that’s not really fair.
    .
    In this case you have the “remnant” on your side and a context that God has used over and over. Examples like the Flood only Noah and 7 others were saved but all the rest perished, Or Sodom where if God could find what, was it down to 10 people, but He couldn’t so it was Lot and his family. Well, God did try to save Lot’s wife, I think He really wanted her to survive, but, it just didn’t turn out that way.
    .
    Universalism is like the New Age view that society is on the brink of an evolutionary quickening, we are all just going to ride the wave as it carries us up.
    .
    Here’s a little mystic fact for you, The Garden of Eden, Paradise, exists within the Heavenly realm, and it is there Adam was created as a soul. His being cast out was his descent into the flesh where living became a struggle. The soul, all souls, in the heavenly realm would exist until the last day of Creation, so throughout the cycle of the Creation they would not experience death as in that realm their is greater stability. God cast Adam into the flesh so that the soul, by its identification with a body, could experience death in a more rapid cycle. This way the soul could see and understand that death is the end of all things. In the same way a teenager might think themselves indestructible as they lack experience of their fragility, so God puts the soul in this flesh so we can see the reality of death, thus we should seek a higher form of Life. But that’s a conversation we are already engaged in.
    .
    “””””” as I continue my research into the “aion” part of the debate.”””””””
    .
    In English, “ages” generally an age can refer to a a length of time where there is a continuity of experience, Palaeolithic age for example as the stone age where tools are made of stone. Biblically we have the Ages that we pass through from Adam to the end of the millennium kingdom, the latter being one of those ages.
    .
    There are two way this is extended, “ages-ages can refer to the “Infinite” realm of the Father. But most times it refers to us as we enter what the Jews refer to as “the age to come” which is our eternal future and life. Mystically it is known as the eighth age or the eighth day. This is also the day Jesus rose, first day of the week to us, but symbolically the eighth day, and true worship is considered to be the eighth day as it speaks of the eternal age. Either way “ages ages” refers to a never ending reality over and above the seven ages of the Creation week.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      Not fair to give someone lots of info? This is a potential doctrinal position change.

      His problem isn’t my info. His problem is he wants independent verification as if Hanson wasn’t enough.

      Universalism is nothing to do with the New Age. It is an ancient doctrine accredited to Origen who was one of the earliest great bible scholars and who’s works were destroyed.

      But you have freedom to research this or not.

      I don’t know how anybody denies Hanson’s explanation because aion’s translation depends on word usage at the time of usage like Hanson writes and he checked it against the ancient Greeks usage. He didn’t just carry someone else’s possible error forward.

      But you have a right to your own beliefs. Even if I disagree with you I must respect your personhood unlike Augustine and the early Catholic Church which accepted torture as a means of silencing people or forcing beliefs on them.

      But I can see that you perceive the works as a burden. I was doing you both a favor by mentioning Jones’ book. I consider it the second most important book written after the Bible as it refutes eternal torment and reveals the sovereignty of God as superior to free will plus explains the difference between the thelema and the boulema which are the will and the plan of God.

      I may be gone now. Have some important business requiring my time.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        ” It is an ancient doctrine accredited to Origen who was one of the earliest great bible scholars and who’s works were destroyed.”
        .
        This statement is a blatant contradiction. If Origen’s works were destroyed then how do we even know his name all these years later for you to even consider him one of the earliest great Bible scholars? And since you consider him that then his works must be preserved in some form for you to review them to form this opinion.

        Reply
        • bob says:

          This statement is a blatant contradiction. If Origen’s works were destroyed then how do we even know…
          How do you spell hypocrite?
          You are applying logic by being skeptical of any claims about the authenticity of works by Origen, due to the fact that his originals are long gone…
          …and yet…
          …you will not (can not?) apply that same skepticism to your holy book, even though the originals are long gone.
          .
          I’ll tell you how to spell hypocrite – M A R K H E A V L I N

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            As she stated her point it was a blatant contradiction.
            .
            The real question is do you have a point or just another one of your opinion’s?
            .
            Origen if he lived was a man. The Holy Bible is something completely different than an individual man. You have free will an are welcome to hold an opinion – but that does not make you correct in any sense of the word.
            .
            .
            2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
            .
            Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

        • Susan says:

          You can read his wiki bio. But he’s not the only early church father that supported universalism.

          You can also read “the pagan origins of Catholicism” on the associates for scriptural knowledge site by Dr. Ernest L Martin.

          Some church doctrines could have been tampered with or misinterpreted just as the apostle John says in the New Testament.

          Martin even explains that the church lost track of a doctrine called the doctrine of ages that he wrote another essay about that is available on that site.

          I understand if you don’t want to read them. That is up to you, Mark.

          But don’t take on universalism again without putting in the work because universalism has a huge and strong case of historical research and scripture behind it. That’s why people have been fighting for this doctrinal reinstatement since early times in Christianity.

          Have a blessed day.

          Reply
        • Susan says:

          On by the way Jesus wrote nothing himself. But other people wrote about him and knew him and that is how we know of him tioday.. Other people knew Origen. too. His students, for instance.

          There is no contradiction just an alternative explanation you never considered.

          Reply
  21. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,
    .
    “”””””I consider it the second most important book written after the Bible as it refutes eternal torment and reveals the sovereignty of God as superior to free will plus explains the difference between the thelema and the boulema which are the will and the plan of God.”””””””
    .
    Here’s my problem, Salvation is very simply, man is first created, as such the nature of our Being and existence comes from the void, the emptiness over which the Spirit Hovered. So this is our sin nature, that which misses the mark as it is inferior to God’s divine Being.
    .
    So, before man can come to God, God must place within man a portion of His own Being, This is the Spirit, This Seed of the divine nature comes into the Creation and ultimately into this physical realm as the Christ, God’s Son. Through His death this Seed was poured out into the Creation so that we could receive it, thus becoming Children of God as God Himself has become part and parcel of our own Being, thus we are born once more, but this time from above instead of from below.
    .
    Thus the Spirit, that which was the Alpha, (first), shall also be the last. In the big picture, God creates the universe as a womb, mankind is created with it, then later impregnated by God’s Being, in this way the universe is meant to bring forth Children to God, for according to God’s nature, He is ever expanding, a cup ever overflowing.
    .
    But as I talk to those who claim to be teachers of Christ, they simply cannot see the Spirit, they have relationships, ransoms, etc… but never is the Spirit given credit for our Salvation. What is supposed to be a beautiful birth, becomes a bloody sacrifice, like the Marys in the Passion of Christ sopping up the blood upon the pavement. You, these apologists here, the western church, perhaps the whole church, give some lip service to the Spirit, but then turn around and nullify (blasphemy) it with such doctrines as substitution or even universalism. The Romans and Jews could not see the Spirit in Christ when He was here, and the church is still blind to the Spirit.
    .
    Those who are born of God, those who know and understand this, they are at rest, they have entered into the Lord’s Sabbath. The scriptures do not save, our savior is Christ, the Seed of the Father, and that Seed which has taken root in my Being. So the Father is in me and I am in the Father, the whole of Creation could collapse in upon itself and I would still exist because His Life, His Spirit sustains me having become my new source of Life. This is not metaphor, but fact, and it is true of others also even if they have not come to recognize it, but it is not true of ALL mankind, only those whom He chooses.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      I think you are right to claim spiritual birth as of central importance but what if God is creating a new order? The mystery Paul speaks of may very well be the great mystery of spiritual birth into union with God.
      But there can also be a long range plan that the details of are sometimes overlooked by us.
      Spiritual birth is not an easy concept to learn. It becomes apparent mainly from reading the Bible then meditating in sync with it.
      This is why I tell people that their first right and most important right is to be born again. This is not even optional. In John 3 Christ said it is a must. So in a sense all God’s ministers of reconciliation are working to promote this spiritual right.

      But somehow this focus on spiritual concepts produces such a change in some Christians that they don’t see that God has a longer range plan that involves everyone.

      This focus on spiritual birth makes the Bible a believer’s book. It is not that you cannot use it to convey God’s salvation to people. You can. But the word doesn’t operate alone. it operates in conjunction with the Spirit of God so you must be in the right attitude for God to sow the seed of belief into your heart which is your inner being and when He does sow this seed it is with incorruptible seed. Our new
      bodies are kept in the heavenly realm by God for us for the future and so they cannot sin even though our current mortal bodies can still have a struggle with sin. in the future all of God’s children will be in these new glorious bodies mentioned in the New Testament.

      There are two resurrections and many do not notice that the first is reserved for the blessed and holy. This is the one Paul said he ran for.
      As a believer being born again many of us are going to be like Paul and try to run the course for the first resurrection but not everyone in life is going to do this. The people that are trying to run this first resurrection course are trying to help God motivate others to do likewise but as you can see not many will.

      So it could be in trying to master and teach the principles of spiritual birth which requires tremendous focus to even learn that we miss the long
      range plan of God. We who are born again by grace are on the better spiritual track and no one on
      this better track would advocate anything less than being a recipient of God’s grace to anyone else.
      But still God is in control and there
      Is a second resurrection.
      We as active Gospel promoting Christians are trying to get everyone into the family of God which is the best place to be with the greatest future but we don’t control these others who refuse or don’t understand the importance of seeking and forming a relationship with God based on good trust.

      So after being born again it is on to discipleship training so we can explain this mystery to those in the right seeking frame of mind to seek a relationship with God.

      But you cannot force people to trust Christ. You can only exhort them and threatening them is not encouraging people to trust God. It turns Him into a threatening figure for some like Richard Dawkins who is spiritually blinder than most and insensible to the significance of what Christ did for him.

      So we have to be careful not to damage people’s perception of God because a very high percentage of people come into this world with attachment issues from infancy.

      I think eternal torment deepens their attachment issues. You don’t teach someone to trust God by saying receive Him or else. So eternal torment came from the mind of an imperfect man’s reasoning who refused to grasp that God’s overriding characteristic is love and that that is to be emphasized.

      Spiritual birth is a long range attachment and growth and development process so we have to learn to be sensitive and not upset others delicate and immature spiritual sensibilities.

      I hope this helps you see the universal restoration position better. We are like midwives helping God by delivering the Gospel but we are not in control. God is through the Holy Spirit and we ought to stop threatening people since people who feel threatened don’t form as solid a relationship with God as those who know He is worthy of love and respect all the time. That is why he is worshipped.

      Eternal torment is the frustrated control freak evangelist take.

      But we just deliver the incorruptible seed only the Spirit can implant it so why do some think we can threaten people to believe?

      Would you want something planted on you when you are in a state of love or fear. Is someone loving or fearful going to be more cognizant of the need to feed his spirit and take care of himself spiritually?

      Just my take. No one could ever threaten me into a relationship. I would bale on them. Wouldn’t you?

      Reply
  22. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,
    .
    “”””””””I think you are right to claim spiritual birth as of central importance but what if God is creating a new order? The mystery Paul speaks of may very well be the great mystery of spiritual birth into union with God.””””””””
    .
    Man and woman together bring forth new life, So God and the Creation bring forth new LIFE. Adam knew his wife, implanted his seed into her, and she brings forth a child in Adam’s image. God implanted His Seed into the creation, binding itself to created souls, and brings forth new Life, Spiritual children for the Father. What is above all, the very purpose of Creation, is reflected in the relationship of a man and woman perpetuating life in this world.
    .
    “””””‘””it operates in conjunction with the Spirit of God so you must be in the right attitude for God to sow the seed of belief into your heart which is your inner being and when He does sow this seed it is with incorruptible seed”””””””
    .
    The Spirit IS the incorruptible seed. Your idea of “Belief” is also a distortion passed down from the church. “Belief” is a function of the personal will, but it has no power in the universe other than to deceive its user. You can believe something is true which is true, and you can believe something is true that is NOT objective true.
    .
    True “Faith” is different in that it is based upon Revelation of spiritual realities. Faith is given by God, Faith sees, Faith understands, Faith is the Light of understanding as when God shines the light on something and we see it, there is not personal virtue attached to seeing what is obvious as when the church proposes faith as a virtue to believe in God, or Christ, or whatever. Faith cannot be deceived because unlike believe, it is not based upon our own will.
    .
    The Church has lost the meaning of Faith as they have dumbed it down to personal belief so they can apply self promotion, virtue to themselves. AS IF God can’t save us unless we BELIEVE in Him.
    .
    Furthermore, the Spiritual birth is not a church rite, I have no recollection of my physical birth, neither would we have recollection of our Spiritual birth, God performs it in the mystery of our Being, perhaps even before our physical birth.
    .
    And yes, eternal torment is a product of an early Roman church arising as a power broker, a political force. Fear, intimidation, and taxation, were their tools of the trade.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      Yes our spiritual birth is supernatural and in God’s control.
      I used to be a very traditional person then I started studying with very, very spiritual people. These are the missionary types. The overcomers who feed on God’s Word until they reach the highest form of spiritual growth. That’s what true disciples become. Overcomers like Christ is.

      Now I am extremely critical of organized religion. It is like a planting place for the seed of God but some of these people never leave it to take on the world.

      I believe the New Testament church in Paul’s day was a community. A big family. That is why they held everything in common and no one went without. Because there was true Christian brotherhood and family in the ranks. But when the church married the state then that family unity was destroyed. The spiritual doesn’t do well yoked to the carnal especially when the carnal is allowed to take over.

      I have been observing Christians and I think church is a routine for some of them. They fight over whether Saturday or Sunday is the proper day of worship. Which is ridiculous. We are in the indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that is it 24/7 commitment yet they wonder why you missed church. They want you to join the organization. An organization they only devote an hour or two a week that makes them feel special. But in my estimation that is not total transformation because like I said a relationship with God is a deeper commitment which leads to spiritual transformation. Of course this is all a growth process but in the exchange of ideas it always seems like the less spiritual people in the church are trying to direct spiritual growth when they are the least qualified to do it.

      This may post may sound terribly arrogant of me but it is just based on life experience and discernment. My judgments will probably change over time as God gives me more discernment but at this point in time I am very disillusioned with the church. I constantly receive solicitations in the mail and that isn’t family. That is organized religion it has me on autopilot and wants to guilt trip me into supporting their causes when I already have my own I am working on for Christ.

      Sorry to unload on you but exposure to sun believes brings division like the Bible says and we really need to tone down this organized religion and get back to true spiritual family.
      But thanks to hundreds of years of Catholic tradition the Christians have settled. Maybe with the growth in numbers settling was inevitable but I really am skeptical of organized religion now.

      If you are happy where you were at then stay there. Because exposure to universalism has changed my whole worldview around. I was always an idealist but evangelism and universalism are my causes and now I I am a bit of a crusader and spiritual warrior for them. Because spiritual birth is the most important right of all people and Christ died to bring it to everybody. Spiritual birth could be the line of separation between the Christian and the world but still God is in control of the whole salvation process. So don’t write off unbelievers. He can still judge and purify them if He wants to. There is no cut off date given in the Bible but there are a lot of all verses and God is all powerful. Don’t sell God short for a stupid man made evil doctrine like eternal torment. Eternal torment makes God look bad and that is one of the worst things in the world a person can do: slander God’s divine and holy nature.

      All things are possible with God. Nothing is too hard for Him and certainly no unbelievers will will overcome His will because he has infinite methods at his disposal. They may think they are getting away with things but ultimately God’s will will prevail.

      Reply
    • Susan Tan says:

      Well you would enjoy the Creation’s Jubilee read because that book explains predestination as it relates to the sovereignty of God correcting Calvinism and free will.

      It sounds like you believe in predestination like me and don’t buy the free will rationalization by men, Brent

      You have to construct the scriptures from the top down like Jones and Ernest L. Martin do because that is God’s view. Free will is from the bottom up from man’s limited view.

      Theology is very detailed and can be hard to understand no matter who’s unified theology takes a shortcut
      through the scriptures substituting men’s rationalizations for God’s verses so stick to the verses or the people who stick closely to them until God’s plan in detail starts to come more and more in mental focus for you. We need to stick in the Scriptures because our minds are fuzzy and sometimes we forget things that God has already said and we can miss details of His plan, methods, intents, promises, etc.

      If more people clung tenaciously to the scriptures then fewer people would be unbelievers because gradually over time God’s word would relieve more and more of their spiritual blindness but people are easily distracted by this world and some people procrastinate and put off understanding God’s word.
      That’s why it behooves God’s people to go to almost supernatural lengths to teach people the truth because that vail everyone falls under mainly only lifts for the people following God’s directions and ways as closely as humanly possible.

      Only the God of the Bible gives revelation so why would you go to anyone else to understand spiritual matters. If you want a good spiritual education and to understand the deep things of God then you have to read what He has said in his word and take them to heart.

      Reply
  23. Susan says:

    Oops exposure to some beliefs above. I try to stay in the spirit but this computer likes to make typos.
    I really should proofread more but I am trying to tone down my perfectionist tendencies.

    Reply
  24. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,
    .
    “”””””””Because spiritual birth is the most important right of all people and Christ died to bring it to everybody. Spiritual birth could be the line of separation between the Christian and the world but still God is in control of the whole salvation process. So don’t write off unbelievers””””””
    .
    Well, I think Christ was quite clear that all men were “not of this world” but rather only those whom He chose. This reality of the “remnant” was not an easy thing for me to accept, nonetheless I could not resist the truth of it. One of the realization that cemented it was in the fact I had to accept the true and full nothingness of our (my) existence. We experience ourselves as being alive, I mean if this is not life then what is. But the more I recognized the pure transient nature of everything, and contrasts that with the nature of the ever existing Father who alone fills eternity, my life faded more and more into being nothing, contrast 80 years against 80 billion, then contrast 80 billion against a truly infinite whole.
    .
    I would I assume this is what Christ meant when He said to be His disciple we must hate our lives, our parents, etc… I never really thought He meant “hate” as people use the word, in Greek the word probably has extended meaning all the way to “discount”. “Passive” rather than “active”. The more we invest in ourselves, in this kind of existence, in this world, the “LESS” God appears to be as our mind categorize Him more as belonging to a Potential realm. The more we understand, truly, our own nothingness, the more He becomes the one and only true reality.
    .
    As regards the “remnant”, we naturally feel this salvation of a few and the loss of so many as a GREAT loss. But from God’s POV, none of us really even exist until His Spirit has come to Give us, lend us His LIFE Being. This is a difficult analogy but applicable nonetheless, we do not grieve when a woman has her menstrual cycle, yet when this happens her egg is lost to oblivion and all the potential that entails. But we know that that egg was never truly alive but only existed as a potential. So is the difference between God’s existence and that of the souls that He created. Because this temporal life is all we have, we think that it is ALL there is, but in truth this all is only the limit of our present existence, what we think of, affectionately attached to, this ALL, is in fact Nothing.
    .
    That was on the negative, on the positive God becomes ,everything. So we talk of Spiritual birth, we agree its important, then we start ADDing things to it, our minds don’t really grasp the import of this Birth, we are, I am, speaking of God’s very Being, God Himself, That which could swallow me up in a mere millisecond, and Infinite weight that could crush me into nothingness, the One’s whose voice, if He were to cease from speaking, so I would vaporize like steam dissipating into the atmosphere. We speak of Spiritual birth as if this Spirit is smaller than us, like a guide who whispers telling us which way to turn. But this rock, has grown into a mountain, and has crushed the great statue of my ego and my existence grinding me to dust, from my golden head to the clay in my feet.
    .
    We all claim we would like to be close to God, but as an ant, do we really want this mountain to fall upon us. Part of me really wants to communicate all this, so maybe my path would not seem to alone, to share the depths of my faith and understanding. But part of me wishes that no one else feel this insignificant and small. But I know of no other way to see God other than to surrender my life in all its aspects.
    .
    As for others, I don’t judge anyone as lost, I cannot see if God’s Spirit might be lying in them waiting to awaken. On rare occasions I can determine someone possibly save as their minds reveal revelations I do not think an unsaved person could ever conceive. But I leave everyone in God’s hands and just seek a receptive ear, possibly to plant a seed.

    Reply
    • Susan Tan says:

      I agree the way God is using hate is different from the way we people use it. Sometimes He uses it to show contrast and show His choice and hand in human affairs.

      I am not sure about the nothingness experience. It could be a unique way you form the idea of dying to self daily to yourself because we are told to die to self.
      But the self life could be experienced by each person a bit differently. I feel at times I was born more humble than most like Moses yet this world still appeals to my old human nature at times so for a long time I have felt God is transferring over the fruit of the spirits to me or building certain attributes. Sometimes I feel like He is putting me through phases. You could google and read “Are You A Misfit ” on the ASk site. It is only a few pages long.

      It could be God is building judgment in us as we will judge angels one day.

      But free will which I don’t study in depth could be a coerced will like Jones says.
      God is the potter and we are the clay so He can shape us if we are surrendered to him as Andrew Murray explains in his work “Absolute Surrender”.

      There is pressure on Christians to explain why some people go to hell and others don’t. So they came up with the free will rationalization putting the blame on people’s will as if God is not in control of everything.

      Predestination has become an almost lost doctrine in the Bible and Calvin’s mistakes didn’t help us understand it. But look at the long line of heroes in the Bible like Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, etc. God foreknew all these people and chose them Himself. He knew them all from the foundations of the world. Jesus Christ hand picked his own disciples. But predestination is getting watered down today by general mainstream ideas that might be wrong.

      Why do we have so many schools of theology? I had someone tell me once that I needed to follow unified theology. If so then which line of unified theology? Reformed? Calvinism? Lutheranism? Catholicism? Arminianism?

      There are a lot of people reasoning along a certain line of thoughts then communicating them to groups of Christians creating denominations and sometimes these denominations do not get along.

      Anyways I read the Bible for myself and I read hundreds and hundreds of papers on various Bible topics and several books though not nearly as many as a Jones or Martin who when you read them seem to come close to being encyclopedic on the Bible. That is a hard thing to do. To have an encyclopedic mind on the Bible but some people have tried to do it but when they give bigger and bigger big picture revelations of the Bible and topical studies other people will disagree with them. Some of these people objecting never ever put in the the work these people did they were just taught things that they never even checked.
      So when I read authors I am looking for a more developed mind of Christ in them
      unconsciously because I make enough mistakes on my own without repeating other people’s unchecked errors. That is what assuming is. An error. A rationalization can contain many assumptions. So that is why I read the Bible myself or read certain people who really hang on God’s every word. Because I am not after people’s explanations. I want to know God’s but I am forced to acknowledge that some people interpret his word better than others and better than me.

      Hope some of this helps. Dr. Jones, Dr. Martin and several others I have come across can explain why God intends to save this world and will do it because he is able and nobody can stop him with the Scriptures unlike Rob Bell’s book where he didn’t explain it from the Scriptures he just gave his personal revelation.

      You have to be careful in this world because people like to censor the revelations of people they don’t agree with. They brand them heretics. Sometimes they torture them and put them on the stake like the Inquisition did to Tyndale. They even touch their works. Hannah Whitall Smith claimed to receive a personal revelation from God of the universal salvation of all man and wrote about it in a famous book and that book is published today with the chapter on universal salvation removed by it’s publishers. Origen’s works were destroyed.

      Still you can get the picture of the salvation of all men from the Bible if you carefully check it and the history.

      But it could be we are still in an early stage of salvation. In the book of Acts it says that God is taking out the residue of men. Is that a chosen group that He is personally training up to work in God’s kingdom for the thousand year period? Sometimes I think so.

      Hope this helps. Mercifultruth.com has several good essays, too.

      Jesus Christ is the savior of all man, especially those that believe.

      Reply
  25. Susan says:

    Doctrine is very important Brent but people put limits on God and His love and His power and His mercy in their own minds all the time.

    But the bible says I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

    So why are so many people subscribing to weak doctrines today. Is God all powerful and does he have the control or not? Does he still work miracles?

    Isn’t there a spiritual mind body connection? And how many people are limiting their own spiritual mind body connection by what they think about God?

    Doctrine is very important. God can save this whole world anytime He wants to. In fact Hecalready has and has said so and numerous passages but we keep denying and limiting him with our weak human rationalizations that we learn from other people when all we really have to do is depend on Him to do what is right and model our own behavior as closely to Him as possible. That’s what Abraham said. Abraham said to God “I see that you will always do right. ”

    When you or I will come to the end of self and be like Him. I have no idea. But I know God is working on in and through me to be a more spiritual person and at this point in time that is more than enough for me. I can’t go any faster than God wants to go can I no matter how impatient I get.

    This could be the difference between being able to perform faith healing or not. We can put limits on ourselves by weak faith. We need more and more increases of it. Doesn’t the Word say it will be done to us according to the measure of our faith.

    Reply
  26. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,
    .
    I was just sharing something of my experience, and had no expectation of it changing, other than if God desired it at some point. And doctrine is only important to those who lack more direct revelation, I know what God is, and I know what His Creation is along with myself. Once you understand the elements themselves, their combinations become self evident. Doctrine is the product of those who have yet to SEE for themselves and are trying to understand exactly what others saw, in this case the Apostles or Christ Himself. Doctrine is an attempt to codify categories, relationships and the like. We might know what flour tastes like, what tomato sauce taste like, and what cheese tastes like, but to truly know what pizza tastes like we have to taste a pizza. Having tasted the pizza, doctrine have no meaning to me anymore.
    .
    People have often tried their labels for me, a Calvinist, an Annihilationist, etc, but what I speak of it straight from my witness, I simply have found no pastor, church of doctrine that speaks as I do, at least not in full. That in itself is pretty scary, I wish I knew of a church or doctrine so complete, then I would send people there. But, its just me as far as I can tell, a voice in the wilderness, John and I even share a similar theme as I must decrease and He must increase, although I take this into the extreme as I applied with math and physics to the Creation itself. There is an uncreated and divine nature that manifests its particular attributes, and there is a created nature that manifests its particular attributes, rightly dividing Spirit from soul, common from divine, unholy from the Holy, it has all become very simply for me. The Doctrines of others tend to blind them more than help them, it gives them the ILLUSION of knowledge without actually knowing.
    .
    And so Christianity and many of its adherents are pretending, and once they ATTACH their self righteousness to their belief system, their is little hope of any further growth outside of major life upheaval and pain. Those who are seeking truth will not wed themselves to any particular doctrine since it is easily recognized as a belief system only. They are driven to taste the pizza, and if they continue, even to the point their own salvation is no longer important but only truth since truth is all that is real, all else being illusion and self deception, then God will reveal Himself to them.
    .
    As long as even our own salvation is involved we are inherently biased, we literally WANT something to be true. In seeking Truth if I had found it fully in Buddha or Krishna then I would be witnessing to them. And I did find much truth in them, but the highest I found in Christ as only in His Being does He connect the finite with the infinite. But I also found that even the adherents of Buddhism understood little about Buddha and the Devotees of the Vedas understand little about Krishna, everybody wants to be GOOD, nobody want to simply see truth.
    .
    After all what can we really offer to God, every one is trying to do or appear good somehow, but it is only self deceit, we are whores at best no matter how righteous or better than another we think we are. Think we are in anyway good or could appear so to God is to seriously demote God in Being and Character
    .
    But we can be truthful, and this is acceptable to God, if you sin then you sin, no excuses, no justifications, if you are going to do it then do it. But don’t insult God by minimizing or rationalizing it. And believe me all this preachers are sinning in some way, if nothing else in the arrogance to think they can lead others to or for God. Robert Jeffreys, pastor of First Baptist Dallas, was talking on the Radio the other day about being a kid visiting the white house and how adamant he was to see the oval office, he carried on as if that were a good thing, but it is pure ego, he is DRAWN to the seat of power, and ultimately that drive led him to the largest church in Dallas, telling people how to live, engaging in political events. Lots of tyrants become school teachers, Is God happy with Jeffreys, I don’t know, but I shudder to think if he is there more for selfish reasons than to actually witness to God, and God doesn’t care how big his church is.
    .
    But this is the world we live in, few years of seminary to learn the doctrines, then instant fame and esteem as people assume you are called somehow, then you start your business (church), most times you really don’t even have to start it, you can hire on and quickly work your way up to CEO. What a gravy job for a type a personality. Oh well, its late and I’m just rambling on.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      It is great to have a personal revelation from God. That is what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is, isn’t it? A lot of people say they experienced it. But still the Bible provides the general revelation and people like to dominate others with their interpretations sometimes so they go too far. How do you have s relationship with God through another person. You can’t. Another person may introduce you to God by explaining the scriptures but ultimately you have to get your own relationship and maintain it. I feel sure people still get personal revelations because they report they do and they say God laid it on their heart to do things they would not have done without the impulse from the spirit. We worry a lot about sin in this world and forget God paid for our past, present and future sins. We don’t even know sometimes when we sin because there can be sins of omission besides we don’t see ourselves as others see us and we don’t see when we pass the line too much trying to control people. I suspect that is why love covers a multitude of sins.

      Doctrine is important because it transfers a knowledge of God to us even though Christians don’t all see and register Him identically. But we have to do some work to keep the perspective straight ourselves. You would not know you are born again spiritually if someone hadn’t put all the scriptures together.

      For me right now it is really about 1 Corinthians 13. I just got a verse off a tea bag the other day and it says “it is not talking in love, but living in love that is everything.” And I think that is right but unfortunately people need to conceptualize first to know anything. We form mental pictures and words help in that formation. If God didn’t help us form mental pictures of right and wrong then people would be like little children taking license all over the place. And there are some adults like that today who act in disregard of others and we call them criminals but on some level almost everyone acts in disregard for others so God calls those acts sins.

      I believe the best thing would be to love everyone with love automatically and treat everyone with respect as the image of God requires but with our current minds people sometimes make that hard to do. Because while you do have to love others you also have to protect yourself. God had tried to build a safer network of relationships for people and society to navigate this world from but most people don’t want to come online with it. They would rather promote individual autonomy and their own reason. It could be they are more scared of the world than others are. People like to communicate their fears even more than their love sometimes breaking down God’s messages in their own heads instead of trusting Him and giving up their sin and fears. Even Abraham showed his fear by questioning God but finally got the realization which is revelation that God is always right. God still reveals Himself today but without the doctrine explaining the book nobody would know it.

      I agree with you the experience of God is the most important still God gave the Word so people can understand Him better.

      I may stop over analyzing everything now. That may be the point of the whole doctrinal experience. Put everything together from God’s perspective then go out and live it. But if you are overly analytical you could stop feeling the love. Because being analytical is great for solving problems but not so great at experiencing higher realities.

      I am going to take a break from solving other people’s problems now so I can just enjoy God and life more simply.

      You see doctrine was given to relieve people’s problems by giving them a better perspective but most people have trouble assimilating and living it. Maybe they get confused or try to hard until they get frustrated that is why you have to learn to leave some things in God’s hands so you can continue to walk with Him. But lots of people have trouble doing that from all sorts of reasons.

      You may have assimilated the spirit better than most but I don’t know for sure as I don’t know you in real life and I am not God to know everything. I am just like everyone else. Doing the best I can with what God provides.

      But I was straying near other religions especially in apologetics then I finally figured out not to stray like a lost sheep and stick closer to God. A lost sheep can get into a lot of trouble in an evil world. But all people are lost sheep without their guardian Shepherd.

      Reply
  27. Brent Hurst says:

    Dear Susan,
    .
    >>>>>>>>>>It is great to have a personal revelation from God. That is what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is, isn’t it? A lot of people say they experienced it.<<<<<<<
    .
    Not to argue, but to reemphasize, in the same way our bodies contain the DNA of both parents, and we are at the foundational level products of that union, whether we realize it or whether we even know who our parents are. To be born of God is to have His divine nature totally combined with our created soul at a level that cannot be separated.
    .
    This happens long before we might have any awareness of it. But later, as that nature starts to mature and awaken, so we might find ourselves drawn to Christ, experience baptism, join a church etc…
    .
    Baptism, to be "immersed", the Eucharist, the eat the body and drink the blood, all these rites only point to the deeper unseen reality of our birth from the Father. A Jew is born a Jew, and they are circumcised without their choice, they are what we call the Chosen people as they are descendents of Abraham.
    .
    This is also where free will and choice breakdown, the New covenant is like the old, whereas Abraham had a covenant with God and God extends that covenant to Abraham's offspring. The New covenant is a covenant between Jesus and the Father where the Father agrees to save those who are the descendents of Christ, those who are born of His Spirit.
    .
    So are salvation is due to the fact that we are children of God through the Spirit, Faith is not a power to effect a covenant, it is simply the eyes and ears God gives us to see and understand we belong to God. Faith doesn't CAUSE salvation, merely perceives it, and so we awaken to the revelation of our salvation. Sometimes during the RITE of baptism God might choose such a moment to give us some kind of kick in the rear, an experience of some sort, light, etc… But neither Baptism nor the Eucharist CAUSE anything of themselves.
    .
    All this being said, any "personal" revelation from God, is merely the ability to actually believe what the scriptures say with the short circuit of the mind thinking and analogist terms. After all, the bible says we are born of God, but in descriptions we find people believe they are ONLY sealed, of that the Spirit is ONLY a helper, so we compartmentalize the Spirit as a "that thing", and we continue to stand on our own and the Father is distant.
    .
    I often still FEEL God to be distant, but I also know He hears every word I say or think, and that Christ does not stand apart from me, But rather He is still alive on this Earth as He is still living His Life through me even as His Spirit flows through my veins, perse.
    .
    You still use terms like "walk with Him" or "He is our Shepherd", and by pushing the deeper reality of the Spiritual Birth I do not disavow these experiences, they are how we begin to understand our relationship with God, But I find them as "aspects" of the Spiritual Birth and our experience, but not the totality of what it means that we are children of God.
    .
    And its been nice talking to you without the haggle over doctrinal disagreements.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      It is nice to leave off the doctrinal arguments at times but learning doctrine is one of the way God builds Christ’s mind in people. If you don’t study the Bible then how can you spot fake doctrines and false prophets from the true ones.

      We were supremely blessed that Catholicism was not able to destroy the idea of spiritual regeneration that is found in the pages of the Bible.

      Isn’t that one of the main reasons for God to reveal Himself in scripture? To provide us with spiritual regeneration.

      But I will leave it at that.

      Reply
    • Susan says:

      I think I am going to take off now Brent there are too many people who want to communicate human evil ideas in the comments section. But Jesus said to take every thought captive. I don’t think he wants us entertaining any evil in our own minds at all so we can remain childlike or return to that state of spiritual innocence and keep our garments clean.

      So sometimes you have to separate yourself from people who only want to plant the evil seed of their ideas on you. Not everyone is teachable or correctable it seems so separation from their non-stop evil is the only option.
      Our minds can be made up along godly lines or ungodly ones the way a computer follows a set course but can be disrupted by evil ideas communicated by others just like an evil person can send you a computer virus on the net.
      We all have the ability to seek God and to be taught right from wrong unless we receive disk corruption. After a certain point the corruption becomes repribation and what person with common sense wants to entertain reprobate ideas in their own head around the clock?

      I am going to take a long rest from the spiritual warfare going on on this site. You can only lose peace of mind if you let others take it from you.

      Reply
  28. Susan says:

    Still think the false prophets didn’t get into Catholicism early? Then why did the popes insist on locking everything up in Latin? And mislead people into confessing their sins to priests when the Bible says believers are already saints and priests themselves?

    Wasn’t that the spiritually blind leading the blind all under the control of the antichrist pope?

    Everyone should be learning Hebrew and Ancient Greek and Aramaic in school.

    We should never have had to rely on faulty interpretations and let a faulty man like the pope control lord it over all and control interpretations like he is infallible.

    Imagine if you could read the Hebrew and understand God in His own language instead of having to accept the interpretive errors force fed onto people.

    Why this whole world would have been evangelized a long time ago but the antichrist popes got into the Roman church like Dr. Ernest L Martin and others reveal and tried to turn Christianity into Babylonianism.

    This is why seeking is so important. If you don’t personally seek to know God then how can you mature spiritually? Plus you could become the product of other men’s inferior thinking.

    Read the Bible for yourself and establish your own identity in God. The whole world is still riddled with false prophets and false religion because Christians were deceived for 1400 years into thinking the pope was God’s supreme representative on Earth.

    But God did not elect the pope like He elected prophets and disciples. People elected the popes then allowed them to spiritually tyrannical errors over them.

    Don’t trust your teachers Christians become the teacher so we won’t be fooled again and watch yourself in apologetics. This is where Catholic thinking is consulted a lot. People like Augustine who insisted on approaching the scriptures with the wrong perspective, a Platonism one, made errors and taught them to others and they became traditions that we don’t check or question.

    The Catholic Church never corrected itself. It was arrogant in it’s error. That is why the Inquisition occurred and the Reformation. The antichrists had to be made to clean up their act but they are still getting away today with all sorts of pagan practices and we let them. Denigrating the priesthood of all believers. We tolerate that because we don’t study our bibles instead we study man made error prone philosophy like Augustine studying Plato.

    Throw the Plato out and learn the Hebrew and Greek and we will all be better off.

    God is pure love and eternal torment is a doctrinal lie taught us and enforced over time by the antichrist popes that keeps a huge portion of mankind in a state of disaffection towards God.

    Reply
  29. Mark Heavlin says:

    @ SUSAN – Enough avoidance of the question just answer it plain and simple.
    .
    “You have too many questions and make too many misstatements for me to correct them all.”
    .
    Well since you think that let’s say we start with just one item then OK ?
    .
    Susan: “You are mistaken about Jones work.”
    .
    Mark: “You can NOT seriously be this ridiculously blinded as to think I made the text below up can you ?”
    .
    “Creation’s Jubilee by Dr. Stephen E Jones.
    .
    This book is dedicated to those who are called to the Ministry of the Conciliation as Ambassadors of Christ, to tell the world the good news of the Restoration of All Things.”
    .
    Well if you are then I suggest you go check the following link:
    https://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/
    .
    And I will stand by my assessment of the book as a whole as unreadable as stated previously as well.
    .
    Having found the dedication to the book confirmed my suspicions.
    THE GOOD NEWS that Christians are actually called to tell the world is this:
    .
    JESUS CHRIST the Only Begotten SON of GOD came to this Earth and was born of a Virgin
    Lived a sinless life
    Suffered and Died by Crucifixion as an Atonement Sacrifice for the entire world
    Resurrected on the 3rd day
    That thru acceptance of this FREE GIFT a person might have ETERNAL LIFE
    Ascended to Heaven and sitting at the right hand of GOD the FATHER
    Returning to Judge the world
    .
    This is the GOOD NEWS!
    .
    .
    @Susan – Care to comment? As you have asserted another place that his book does NOT have a dedication?

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      I am sorry. I did not recall the dedication because I never read it but I read the book but I see nothing wrong with his dedication as Christians are entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “I did not recall the dedication because I never read it but I read the book but I see nothing wrong with his dedication as Christians are entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation.”
        .
        I suggest you go look in The Bible for what Christian are entrusted with.

        Reply
        • toby says:

          You two should consider this: according to you and your religion, there is one inerrant book that is the word of god. It then makes perfect sense that there is one perfect way to interpret it. God’s perfect, the bible’s perfect, so there’s also a perfect reading and understanding. Now which of you has it? And if neither of you do, then how can you be sure you’re following any of it correctly?

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            To her shame that you as an atheist grasp the crux of the argument and she can NOT.
            .
            Not that you care but you should be rooting for her to win this as her position is one of “universalism”. That she can NOT supply a single verse to refute Revelation 20:15 is telling because she has said she has studied “universalism” extensively and understands it completely. And still she can NOT provide a SINGLE VERSE to refute Revelation 20:15.
            .
            Just from the logical side of things if you care to understand the argument Google – “Christian universalism” for her side of the argument.
            And then you could look at the following.
            Link provided: https://creation.com/does-god-judge-sinners
            .
            Not that you will but this article sums up my KNOWLEDGE pretty closely.
            .
            GOD is perfect. HIS inerrant WORD is The Holy Bible. I would agree that there is also a perfect reading and understanding of it as well. Now can we as flawed humans get to it that is the question? This much I KNOW if you can NOT prove it using The Scriptures of The Holy Bible then you are on seriously shaky ground when it comes to Christian doctrine.

        • Susan says:

          The Gospel is The Ministry of Reconciliation.

          See below:

          The Ministry of Reconciliation
          11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

          16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

          Reply
  30. Mark Heavlin says:

    @ SUSAN – Enough avoidance of the question just answer it plain and simple.
    .
    Or perhaps you would care to try this one item instead?
    .
    Susan: “Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible.”
    .
    Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    .
    So tell me if free will is not even mentioned in The Bible: Did Eve and then Adam NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Do you have NO comprehension of how ridiculous and untenable your position has become?
    .
    @Susan – Care to comment about how Adam and Eve had NO free will?

    Reply
  31. Mark Heavlin says:

    @ SUSAN – I am not done dissecting all of the verses from the tentmaker site but let’s just say that it is not looking good for your point of view. It seems the man is obsessed with taking Scripture blatantly OUT OF CONTEXT or asserting something he claims makes “universalism” true; but is CLEARLY refuted just a few verses before or after in the same passage.
    .
    .
    Now as an exercise you can go read what is actually being talked about in Scripture IN CONTEXT from a reliable source.
    Link provided: https://creation.com/does-god-judge-sinners
    .
    Read the comments at the bottom as well.
    .
    John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    Reply
  32. Mark Heavlin says:

    @ SUSAN – Enough avoidance of the question just answer it plain and simple.
    .
    Is there any verse that shows that an individual that is thrown into the lake of fire ever gets out?
    You could have ended this argument a long time ago by providing this single verse. That you can NOT provide one is telling.
    .
    Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Reply
    • Susan Tan says:

      I think I already told you I am not arguing scripture you cherry picked out of the Bible to support your fear doctrine.

      I did the doctrinal studies so I could throw this man made fear out of my own head.

      All doctrine passes through the mind of men to be interpreted and the hell fire misinterpretation must have come from an unclean mind that wanted to control others.

      But the purpose of being born again isn’t to allow other people to control you with their fears and fear doctrines.

      If your spirit is strong then you should have self control which is a fruit of the spirit.

      What need is there for other evil people controlling you if you have self control granted you by God but the popes try to control everyone and make mindless slaves to the papacy, bowing and scraping and kissing the pope’s ring as if he is God when in fact he is not.

      I am a child of God and I will bow and scrape to no man like Mordecai who refused to bow to demonic Human in the Book of Esther.

      Now stop trying to take apart God’s position which you are not familiar with and pray to God for guidance and to open your mind to the truth and go read those works.

      Do you really think sheep can’t be deceived by the antichrists abounding in this world?

      Sheep are soft hearted dumb animals so we need to ask God for the gift of discernment. As well as all the other spiritual gifts as Paul directs us to do.

      Really if our wills were so free then how do the become subject to the slave master sin?

      Read the Bible. Humans have a struggle to get free. Only Christ can make us free but he uses the Bible to notify us that there is a battle of the mind and will involved in the whole faith process.

      So pray that God increases your faith.

      The wages of sin is death not hell. If it were eternal torment then Christ would have to still be in hell paying the wages of our sins but we see that he is now in heaven.

      You could have a doctrinal blind spot forced on you by the evil interpretations of men so pray to God to set your reason free.

      There is no reason in this day and age for anyone to fear an all loving God. Reverence yes. Fear no.

      Fear will keep you mentally divided from God.

      Perfect love casts out fear so love is enabling while fear is the weakness that needs to be cast out.

      It could be a starting place in the human mind but why would anyone continue to submit to a weakness or a fear once God has built the mind of Christ in them.

      The verses are God’s food to feed our spirits to full growth aren’t they and the spirit is higher than the letter so do not let the false interpretations of men prevent you from being a full fledged child of God. Let God rule in your heart and your head and throw that demonic lie out.

      You are an apologist aren’t you! Then start acting like a spiritual warrior and start throwing the hell lie out. People are exposing eternal torment as a lie all over the place today.

      Hope this helps.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “I think I already told you I am not arguing scripture you cherry picked out of the Bible to support your fear doctrine.”
        .
        Ohhh, I see but you have NO problem throwing up 75 verses CHERRY PICKED by someone else to support your position of “universalism”. That you have OBVIOUSLY not researched yourself to see that they are taken OUT OF CONTEXT or REFUTED in the same passage?
        .
        Example #1: This is 4) from your list of 75.
        .
        4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all. Will He succeed?
        .
        Reading just three more verses refutes the “universalist” interpretation of John 12:47 as being OUT OF CONTEXT. This appears to be a major theme of the “universalists’ way of thinking” as they do it over and over. PROPER CONTEXT AND UNDERSTANDING IS MANDATORY FOR A PROPER INTERPRETATION.
        .
        This is Jesus speaking:
        John 12:47-50 47 As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50 And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”
        .
        Revelation 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
        .
        So the question still remains where is the verse that shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire ever getting out?

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          I got the verses to accommodate your request after you made it repeatedly. Initially I was not reading your responses that closely as I am not in the habit of debating Christians and quite honestly my focused in life has changed from defending the Gospel to teaching, ministering and counseling because you only have to defend it if you can’ t communicate it accurately but in apologetics you are almost always against the bulwarks in people’s minds. I don’t know why they have so much confidence in their teachers that they never take their doctrinal answers and start to use their own minds to locate the doctrinal contradictions but most don’t. But if you can’t start spotting and refuting doctrinal errors how is it you have a fully formed Christian mind?

          The prophets were always correcting the kings because most of them paid more attention to God than the kings leading everyone did.

          Christ has a dual role: both priest and king. One interprets what God says and the other applies it.

          But I digress.

          Why is it you are so happy to debate a fellow believer when you should be researching and studying the scriptures for answers on this important question yourself.

          Christians like to overuse context to interpret the text but the whole context of scripture is God’s nature and who you think He is.

          I do not think God is a bully like Richard Dawkins communicates to everyone. Nor do I believe in the angry God syndrome that some preachers communicate.

          So I won’t debate it.

          I am seriously thinking of applying myself to the Hebrew not because interpretation is so important and the translators will let the Catholics get away with transmitting a doctrinal error of this magnitude then I will just have to apply myself more. Up to now it was easy for me to recognize the error of the translations that many better students than me point out.

          And I find it strange that history likes to brand as heretics the most loving and strongminded Christians.

          You aren’t refuting me because I am not debating.

          For years while I was trying to communicate the Gospel to unbelievers it would occasionally force me to debate but teaching is superior to debating. To accurately teach a subject you actually have to master it so I located all the finest online teachers I could and studied their revelations and works.

          God still reveals today if we let Him. How and to whom and when only He knows.

          But I threw the fear doctrine out and now think it a child’s fear. When you grow in the Spirit you realize the only boogeymen are the ones you let people plant on you or invent yourself.

          I am not saying there is not a Satan but a true disciple can cast him out in Jesus’ name like the disciples did demons.

          The Bible really is all about the battle for the mind and a battle of wills.

          The way you start to win these battles is to go to God for counsel and check other counselors’ work for errors.

          I am not going to explain further because you have your own will and option to use your own mind on this question or not. I gave you plenty of sources of people with details who researched this.

          You aren’t controlling my thought life through debates or questioning. I like using my own mind for myself because that is how I make the most discoveries.

          If you won’t use your own mind how will it grow in spiritual knowledge?

          Have a great day!

          Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “What need is there for other evil people controlling you if you have self control granted you by God but the popes try to control everyone and make mindless slaves to the papacy, bowing and scraping and kissing the pope’s ring as if he is God when in fact he is not.”
        .
        You have a serious issue with The Roman Catholic Church but his is neither the place or venue and only serves to confuse your own mind on what we are discussing here. I suggest you take it to a Catholic website and take it up with them.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          I believe many Catholics could be Christians because many could love Jesus and the spirit does work in mysterious ways in spite of their doctrinal error.

          But read Martin’s essay on the associates for scriptural knowledge site. He makes a strong case for Babylonianism invading the Roman church under Simon Magus, a Babylonian religious leader. Most heresies are traceable back to Magus.

          For years I read atheists claim Christianity was sun worship and Mithraism and I denied it. But now I understand where they get the misimpression from. It is Babylonianism bonding to Christianity so they totally neglect doctrines like the priesthood of the believer in favor of setting up an organized system of priests like in the Old Testament.

          Sometimes outsiders looking in see things we have trouble spotting ourselves and sometimes it takes very deep research to document it like Martin did on this.

          So you can read him or not.

          You can love or like people while they are in error and you correct them and according to 1 Cor. 5 we are to judge believers not unbelievers.

          If we would spend more time judging ourselves that would be wise because the Bible says when we judge ourselves then we escape the judgment.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “I believe many Catholics could be Christians because many could love Jesus and the spirit does work in mysterious ways in spite of their doctrinal error.
            But read Martin’s essay on the associates for scriptural knowledge site. He makes a strong case for Babylonianism invading the Roman church under Simon Magus, a Babylonian religious leader. Most heresies are traceable back to Magus.”
            .
            .
            You have a serious issue with The Roman Catholic Church but his is neither the place or venue and only serves to confuse your own mind on what we are discussing here. I suggest you take it to a Catholic website and take it up with them.

      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “You could have a doctrinal blind spot forced on you by the evil interpretations of men so pray to God to set your reason free.”
        .
        I suggest you take your own advice here and actually go study what The Holy Bible actually says in the PROPER CONTEXT.

        Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “Let God rule in your heart and your head and throw that demonic lie out.
        You are an apologist aren’t you! Then start acting like a spiritual warrior and start throwing the hell lie out. ”
        .
        Do you have any comprehension of what you are talking about or who you are talking to?
        Do you have NO comprehension that “universalism” is not supported by Scripture?
        .
        Time for your LOGIC lesson:
        .
        Given the following:
        GOD exists; Satan (Lucifer) exists; Heaven exists; The Lake of Fire exists.
        .
        Which statement A or B makes more LOGICAL SENSE?
        .
        A: Revelation 20:15
        or
        B: All people are saved. – (Universalism)
        .
        .
        “People are exposing eternal torment as a lie all over the place today.”
        .
        Not by using Scripture from The Holy Bible unless they are misinterpreting it.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Done here.

          I understand you did not check the universalist position and are in no position to judge it but want to defend what you were taught.

          I am not going to be able to compel you to research if you don’t want to but stop acting like you won.

          You didn’t. You are simply not conversant with the universal restoration position and it is too big and elaborate with too many details for me to explain satisfactorily in this format.

          That is why I have consistently named various works and sites for you to consult.

          If you want to be Berean then you will locate it yourself.

          You can’t refute a position you never checked because it requires a detailed analysis to refute a doctrine.

          I checked an apologetics site the other day and the refutation of universalism by the apologist was a jumbled mess that contained clear misassumptions on his part.

          Have a great day. I think I will spend more time seeking revelation and less time trying to correct people who keep trying to cut it off early.

          I understand you probably are afraid of falling under the spell of a false prophet but you can’t understand doctrine or defend the Gospel without researching positions. Quite a bit of apologetics is refuting false prophets like the Jehovah Witnesses, etc.

          But you have to know their positions substantially to address and refute each point. Not just sit back and wag verses at them.

          I hope you learned the importance of researching if you think you are going to take someone on for God in the future.

          God Bless.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            Oh one last comment Mark. Do you know how you resolve a logical contradiction?

            By researching and locating the additional info.

            I have pointed out the flaws of several atheist contradictions about the Bible because I bothered to research and locate the missing auxiliary info.

            Research oftentimes resolves superficial contradictions.

            But a lot of people seem to be lazy and find it easier not to put in the work themselves.

            It is amazing but true that you are every bit as lazy as the atheists who I used to debate who would point to contradictions in the Bible using their idol logic then refuse to see when I provided the info resolving the contradiction.

            So do your own work because you refused to even review the info I offered.

            History is auxiliary info for the Gospel. It always has been.

            But you didn’t review any of the history sources I provided.

            Apologetics requires work and common sense.

            It is not for the lazy workman.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “I understand you did not check the universalist position and are in no position to judge it but want to defend what you were taught.”
            .
            Nope; You are again WRONG on this. Not finished researching but when everything that you have given me to date to support your position is either BLATANTLY WRONG or TAKEN COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT then it begins to look like you are just wasting my time. Remember you said you had done all of the research and understand and believe that “universalism” is true. But everything you have given me to date is incorrect.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “You didn’t. You are simply not conversant with the universal restoration position and it is too big and elaborate with too many details for me to explain satisfactorily in this format.”
            .
            Maybe you could just provide the Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verses from The Holy Bible ( you know ) the inerrant WORD of GOD then and I can go read it for myself ?????
            .
            Maybe you could even start with the verse that shows someone who is thrown into the lake of fire as to how they get out and when ??????????

  33. Brent Hurst says:

    Of course the biggest problem with “Free Will” is that we tend to choose poorly. Salvation according to free will is the old covenant, one we could not keep. Sure, people think they choose Christ, and that they are now Christians, but the holiness that God demands is perfection even as He Himself is holy. But if we choose God one minute, then turn around and sin that evening, then we have broken the whole of the Covenant. Of course most Christians today see Christianity as a “dumbing down” where all we have to do is confess Christ, then we are covered even if we sin later.
    .
    The Old Covenant was predicated on the agreement of two parties. But since man inherently continues to CHOOSE other than Christ as the nature of the flesh is opposed to that of the Spirit, so there had to be a new covenant.
    .
    The New Covenant is based upon God, in and of Himself, implanting HIs Spirit within us, giving us as it were a heart of flesh to replace the one of stone, which is metaphorical for giving us a LIVING heart of the Spirit rather than the DEAD heart of our created nature.
    .
    Substitutional Theology, where Christ dies INSTEAD of you, does not recognize the reality of the Spiritual birth where God has place within us His own Nature, thus adopting and imputing to us His Righteousness, even as we are born of His Nature now.
    .
    This was the true purpose of Christ as His blood, His own Spiritual Being as the Life within the blood, was poured out so that we might share in His nature.
    .
    Now free will is no longer necessary as it was weak, now since God own nature has been given (grace) to us, so do we long for God as a child longs for its Father,
    .
    Christians who are still IMMATURE in the faith perceive this longing as if it is of their natural nature, as if in their flesh alone they choose God, in this they can feel themselves to be virtuous as they compare themselves to others who have not chosen God. In this mindset they are stealing God’s Glory as they apply His virtue to themselves.
    .
    IF God has given us of His Spirit, and thus it is His Spirit within us that drives us towards God, then is God the beginning and the last, He chooses us in His Grace, and we AWAKEN as we mature in our Faith (revelation) of that divine mystery, Christ in us.
    .
    If we stop taking credit for what God started, sustains, and will finish, we can enter into His Rest, because every time you think you have chosen God you think you are working your way towards Him, your will, your choice, is still your EFFORT.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      Well there may be more to everything than a person trying to give a doctrinal explanation can explain.

      I no longer believe everything is choice. Some people choose to sin but some of it is actually attributable to genetic weakness. People can have impulsivity problems that are brain chemistry issues for instance. How do these people control a serotonin or dopamine issue that prompts them to be weak to temptation like over eating or spending too much or substance abuse. There is a genetic component because alcoholism, pedohilia, etc. run in families.

      But in Paul’s day they merely said the flesh is weak they didn’t understand the biology or chemistry behind it like we do today. Plus people sometimes don’t reason accurately when making a decision to sin or not because people don’t perceive right and wrong behavior identically.

      But the scriptures do tell us death did enter the human race creating us mortal and our mortality leads to weakness.

      Romans 5:12

      12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because [eph’ ho, “on which”] all sinned-

      Reply
  34. Mark Heavlin says:

    @SUSAN – You seriously can NOT be this obtuse? If you can NOT give a single verse to refute Revelation 20:15 then I suggest you STOP with the false doctrine of “universalism”. That this is the THIRD time I have had to ask the same question on a subject that you say you have studied extensively and understand completely is just ridiculous. A SINGLE VERSE !!!!!!!!!
    .
    @ SUSAN – Enough avoidance of the question just answer it plain and simple.
    .
    Is there any verse that shows that an individual that is thrown into the lake of fire ever gets out?
    You could have ended this argument a long time ago by providing this single verse. That you can NOT provide one is telling.
    .
    Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Reply
    • Susan says:

      I gave you the name of a work to read Mark that explains the the lake of fire is spiritual for purification. It contains a whole chapter explaining it.

      From Malachi 3:

      2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.

      3 “He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

      God is purifying the sons of Levi above.

      Dr. Jones gives a more complete explanation in that chapter but here is a part of the chapter:

      Fire and Brimstone

      There are some who argue that the fire must be a literal place of burning and torture, because it is often associated with “brimstone.” Revelation 21:8 says,

      8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

      Does the “brimstone” prove that this is a literal fire that tortures men? Actually, the very opposite is true. Brimstone is sulfur, as any concordance will show. The original Greek word for sulfur, or “brimstone,” is theion. Its root is theo, which is the same word usually translated “God.” (Note: Theology is the study of God.)

      Sulfur, or theion, was considered to be sacred to the ancient Greeks. It was used to consecrate for divine service, to PURIFY, and to cleanse. They used it in religious rites to purify their temples. They would even rub it on their bodies to signify consecration to God. In its verb form the word theou means “to hallow, make divine, or to dedicate to God.”

      And so, to a Greek reader, a lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur) would signify a lake of divine purification or consecration to God.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        @SUSAN – I stand corrected you can be this obtuse. Where is the SINGLE VERSE that shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire ever getting out?
        .
        @SUSAN – You seriously can NOT be this obtuse? If you can NOT give a single verse to refute Revelation 20:15 then I suggest you STOP with the false doctrine of “universalism”. That this is the THIRD time I have had to ask the same question on a subject that you say you have studied extensively and understand completely is just ridiculous. A SINGLE VERSE !!!!!!!!!
        .
        @ SUSAN – Enough avoidance of the question just answer it plain and simple.
        .
        Is there any verse that shows that an individual that is thrown into the lake of fire ever gets out?
        You could have ended this argument a long time ago by providing this single verse. That you can NOT provide one is telling.
        .
        Revelation 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Mark I was re-reading the thread and you definitely have interpretive problems.

          Why do I have to show anyone getting out of a spiritual fire?

          You interpret the Lake of Fire literally!

          I do not as the word
          “fire” is clearly not literal in many passages of the Bible and you can google all the passages with the word fire in it and see that unless you are determined not to see.

          Don’t ever try to control me again when you lack interpretive capability.

          I used to run into this all the time with people who have logic idols. They can never interpret the Bible anyway but literally.

          Cling to your literal Interpretation if you must but it is your loss and I find your dogged determination to force your limited, cruel perspective onto me to be barbarous.

          If you can’t interpret figurative language then don’t engage in correcting people who can.

          Have a nice life.

          I spent too much time online and don’t plan on coming back so I can go out and live more abundantly now.

          That eternal torment lie is a real piece of work. I am glad I struck that lie down repeatedly now I have better things to do for God like charity work.

          Correcting ideologues whether they be militant atheists or fundie Christians is hard but I did it.

          Pray to God now for revelation and maybe He will let you see eternal torment for the abomination it is and you have been communicating it to people with a haughty smug pride.

          Prove someone got out of the Lake of Fire? That is ridiculous.

          You prove the fIre is literal in a symbolic book that uses figurative language.

          It is hard for you to swallow and admit but there are many, many people on the net interpreting the Bible better than you and those people know it is a spiritual fire.

          What is a halo? Isn’t it a spiritual fire around someone’s head.

          I had a halo experience once. Maybe because I knew when to admit I was wrong about literal hell fire and correct my views.

          People with teachable spirits are correctable y’know.

          The spirit is higher than the letter it says in first Corinthians but all you did with the passages was reverse that to make the letter (literal) higher than the more spiritual interpretation which I gave you.

          So shame on you, Heavlin! Go ask God now for forgiveness because you have been using a false doctrine like a whip trying to motivate spiritually blind people.

          God controls the veil. You can’t force the veil to lift by threatening people with a fear doctrine hence love casts out fear.

          Go confess you were wrong to God now and May His Grace Abound To You in spite of your lack of grace in your thought life towards others blinder than yourself.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Mark I was re-reading the thread and you definitely have interpretive problems.”
            .
            Really, I have interpretation problems????? I suggest you go look in the mirror for the interpretation problems. Then come back and read Revelation 1:1-3 below; especially VERSE # 2. Then go read Revelation 20:14-15 until you actually understand it.
            Reread Revelation 1:1-3 as many times as you need as well to you can actually COMPREHEND what the verse is saying; especially VERSE # 2.
            .
            Revelation 1:1-3 1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
            .
            Revelation 20:14-15 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
            .
            .
            “I spent too much time online and don’t plan on coming back so I can go out and live more abundantly now.”
            .
            Funny you been saying the same thing for weeks now but yet you are still here. Hmmmmm, kinda makes you look well ridiculous.
            .
            .
            “Prove someone got out of the Lake of Fire? That is ridiculous.”
            .
            Funny that seems to be EXACTLY what I have been saying the ENTIRE TIME. Well nice to see you finally admit that no one gets out of the lake of fire. Kinda blows a massive hole in you pet theory of “universalism” though.
            .
            .
            “The spirit is higher than the letter it says in first Corinthians but all you did with the passages was reverse that to make the letter (literal) higher than the more spiritual interpretation which I gave you.”
            .
            Given your poor history of using things OUT OF CONTEXT I will have to ask you to provide Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse so I can verify what you seem to be paraphrasing here. So where is it? And for the record NOTHING that you gave me was correct. It was either REFUTED in the same passage or used COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT. Guess you forgot about the passage from Jeremiah that you were completely wrong about????????
            .
            .
            “So shame on you, Heavlin! Go ask God now for forgiveness because you have been using a false doctrine like a whip trying to motivate spiritually blind people.
            God controls the veil. You can’t force the veil to lift by threatening people with a fear doctrine hence love casts out fear.
            Go confess you were wrong to God now and May His Grace Abound To You in spite of your lack of grace in your thought life towards others blinder than yourself.”
            .
            Do you have any comprehension what you are even talking about?

  35. Susan says:

    Romans 9 gives a clearer picture of predestination.

    14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    Predestination is the explanation by Paul that everything depends on God’s will.

    Also God hardened Pharoah’s heart so he did not have free will.

    You should read Jones, Mark because he explains the historical source behind the ideas like the fact that the Essenes believed in total predestination, the Saducees were influenced by the Greeks and believed in total free will while the Pharisees believed in a combination of both.

    As for Adam and Eve I do not see the free will in being deceived. It’s likely they were innocent like children and children are more easily deceived.

    It could be some people are born more naturally obedient to authority at least I think so.

    But society has organized religion now
    relentlessly recounting it’s rationalizations as the truth.

    I prefer to read independent scholars who spend great time and care checking the scriptures for
    themselves until they understand thoroughly
    in their own minds and can explain God’s ideas in the greatest detail sharing what He revealed to
    them.

    The Sacred Secrets of the Sovereignty of God book by James Bruggeman gives the scriptural construction proving predestination is God’s method of carrying out His plan. Predestination is related to God’s foreknowledge.

    Must break now. I am getting behind on things while I explain as much as possible to
    you. I spent so much time reading scriptural works by some very fine wordsmiths that I would have a doctorate in theogy by now if it had been at university but God always seems to take me on unorthodox routes to teach me the truth. Thanks be to God. I have been a slow but steady student and now I know where many great works are because many great biblical scholars and teachers who have devoted their lives to God go out of their way to post on the internet to keep the world informed of the truth.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “As for Adam and Eve I do not see the free will in being deceived.”
      .
      WHAT ????????????? SERIOUSLY ?????????????????????
      .
      The free will was in the reaching out and taking and eating of the fruit of a tree in which GOD had commanded them NOT to eat of.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Please stop with the man made free will doctrine and read the “Predestination and Election” chapter of Creation’s Jubilee for a better doctrinal interpretation based more closely on God’s perspective and scripture.

        The Greek philosophers were all up in the free will doctrine and it’s construction. You can tell by looking at the history of it on Wikipedia.

        If you want to see God’s perspective more closely check out that chapter because I am not arguing free will which Jones explains is flawed.

        Read that chapter where he explains the neglected Sovereignty of God doctrine upon which authority is based. Man has limited authority.

        We need to get a closer view of God’s perspective instead of settling for Greek philosophers toying with the scriptures.

        Do you want God’s perspective or philosophical rationalizations from men taking intellectual shortcuts?

        I have been giving you all the works so you can avoid the shortcut errors of men.

        These are the serious sober scholars who check everything in detail.

        So go get yourself a real biblical education.

        Take care.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “Please stop with the man made free will doctrine and read the “Predestination and Election” chapter of Creation’s Jubilee”
          .
          SERIOUSLY ??????????
          .
          Do you have NO comprehension of just how ridiculous your post is?
          .
          You want me to go read one man’s opinion from a garbage book that is unreadable; with a suspect dedication as compared to SCRIPTURE straight out of THE HOLY BIBLE that is self explanatory????????
          .
          TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.
          .
          .
          Further I would like you to go and reread all of your comments to me. Someone who you have no clue as to my background and tell me if you can seriously say that what you have said to me is how you represent as a supposed Christian. Because there is more than one that I have let slide that are just completely over the line for what one Christian is saying to another Christian on a public forum.

          Reply
  36. Susan says:

    I should mention though that Walter Dolen on
    Becomingone.org believes there to
    be a connection between free will and man thinking he can be rewarded for
    his own efforts. It makes you wonder if free
    will doctrine tied in to the sale of indulgences
    where people tried to buy forgiveness instead of approaching God and asking Him humbly for it.

    In the absence of a complete and thorough construction of the scriptures people tend to fall
    back on rationalized assumptions that may not match the Word.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Further I would like you to go and reread all of your comments to me. Someone who you have no clue as to my background and tell me if you can seriously say that what you have said to me is how you represent as a supposed Christian. Because there is more than one that I have let slide that are just completely over the line for what one Christian is saying to another Christian on a public forum.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        I am sorry for any personal comments but I am not going back to re-read a position I am already familiar with.

        You should have read some of the people I listed because you don’t take apart another doctrinal position apart before you even understand it.

        Don’t send me any more posts because I am not engaging in a battle of wills with you.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “SUSAN says:
          April 11, 2018 at 4:21 pm
          I am sorry for any personal comments but I am not going back to re-read a position I am already familiar with.”
          .
          “SUSAN says:
          April 10, 2018 at 11:50 pm
          Mark I was re-reading the thread and you definitely have interpretive problems.”
          .
          Yeah, I was NOT asking you to reread from the perspective of what you believe. What I was asking for you to do was go reread on the basis of your derogatory comments made specifically about and to me. Because there is more than one that I have let slide that are just completely over the line for what one Christian is saying to another Christian on a public forum.
          .
          Guess that is beyond your level of reading comprehension though.
          .
          .
          “Don’t send me any more posts because I am not engaging in a battle of wills with you.”
          .
          In that it is NOT a battle of wills you are correct. It is a battle of the TRUTH as proven in the SCRIPTURE versus your man-made doctrine of “universalism”.

          Reply
          • Susan says:

            You replaced the spiritual with the natural interpretation.

            The Bible never says context controls interpretation.

            This is what the Bible says about interpretation:

            1 Cor 2:14
            Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

            But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

            You compare spiritual to spiritual but you didn’t do that you leaned on your own understanding.

            God does everything by the counsel of His own will and His will and judgment are more enlightened than most men’s.

            When He intends to save the world it is a done work. Not subject to limited men’s interpretations because God is all powerful, holy and more than able.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            I am embarrassed for you that you can NOT even copy and paste Scripture correctly and also that you are to arrogant to even proof read before you hit the ” POST COMMENT ” button. What you call “1 Cor 2:14” is in actuality 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 and is posted below.
            .
            1 Corinthians 2:12-14 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            .
            No surprise that you continue to use verses OUT OF CONTEXT either. Do yourself a favor and go actually read what the commentaries say about these 3 verses.
            .
            .
            “You replaced the spiritual with the natural interpretation.”
            .
            Really???????? Where???????????? Show me; because I think you do NOT have a clue what you are talking about.
            .
            .
            “You compare spiritual to spiritual but you didn’t do that you leaned on your own understanding.”
            .
            Now I KNOW that you have NO clue what you are talking about.
            .
            Revelation 1:1-3 1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.
            .
            Revelation 20:14-15 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
            .
            Then explain to me exactly what those two passages mean then???????
            .
            .
            Or how about this one that you have already flailed at interpreting?????
            .
            Susan: “Free will is not even mentioned in the Bible.”
            .
            Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
            .
            So tell me if free will is not even mentioned in The Bible: Did Eve and then Adam NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Do you have NO comprehension of how ridiculous and untenable your position has become?
            .
            @Susan – Care to comment about how Adam and Eve had NO free will?
            .
            To which you responded: “As for Adam and Eve I do not see the free will in being deceived. It’s likely they were innocent like children and children are more easily deceived.”
            .
            Seriously: This is your response to whether Adam and Eve had free will ??????
            .
            Let’s go see how GOD responded to the choices ( yeah you can READ “CHOICES” HERE AS FREE WILL DECISIONS ) that Adam and Eve made. The headings in the following verses was added by the KJV.
            .
            The Punishment of Mankind
            Genesis 3:16-24 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
            The Expulsion from Paradise
            21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
            .
            Yeah I guess you are right GOD gave them a pass for their actions ( yeah you can READ “ACTIONS” HERE AS FREE WILL DECISIONS ) because they were “children”. NOT. Their SIN is exactly why we live in the type of world we live in today. Hence the term ORIGINAL SIN. Truly unbelievable.

  37. Susan says:

    You are not a pleasant person, Mark. You started the sling fest by calling me illogical and irrational in this thread which is something online militantly atheist trolls accuse ChrIstians of being so I am not reading you any longer.

    Your interpretations are narrow minded and you are a controlling person who wants to win more than understand God’s perspective.

    I am so happy God is in control and has stated He does everything by the counsel of His own will instead of leaving everything up to the will of narrow minded people.

    As you were already told I believe in predestination and election and the Bible does show that God controls the mechanism of conviction through the supernatural actions of the Holy Spirit so stop trying to prevent others from checking alternate doctrinal explanations for themselves by threatening them with your own fear doctrine construction.

    You don’t control me. I surrendered to God a long time ago and was out doing apologetics in the unsafe internet world long before you showed up to try and control me on a much safer Christian blog.

    I delivered the Gospel all by myself in the real world in several international cities.

    Let me assure you. If a horde of militant atheist trolls could not scare me with constant criticism and even death threat you certainly cannot control me with your weak minded fear doctrine obviously designed to keep people weak minded.

    Please leave off battling people better than yourself at interpreting the scriptures until you have the courage to overcome and throw this fear doctrine out of your mind and come out into the glorious courage and freedom of God.

    2 Timothy 1:7
    You can’t be truly with a fear doctrine controlling your thought processes like a demon keeping you narrow minded can you?

    When you get free THEN come talk to me.

    I threw that fear doctrine out of my head a long time ago. I like being sane.

    For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    How does anyone achieve self control letting a fear dwell in his own head?

    There is no freedom without courage because freedom must be maintained by something.

    I repeat I am not afraid of you or your insults and your petty attempts by your natural mind to deny my spiritual interpretations are doomed to failure because you can only make a nuisance out of yourself on this blog.

    I can move off this blog into another place in the real world and deliver the universal restoration doctrine like Paul did any time I want to. In fact, I
    have and it seemed to have been warmly received at the Pentagon mall.

    The doctrine makes the man so Catholicism planted a fear doctrine in everyone’s head so the pope could stand in the place of God and control the masses.

    So if you want to continue to prop up a fear doctrine in the mind of man then go crawl on your knees and kiss the pope’s ring like a Jesuit lackey.

    I stopped being a milk fed lackey a long time ago.

    I have been personally crusading for the correction of this doctrine for a while now and crusading is not for weakling cowards who are easily discouraged.

    So you had better stop making a nuisance of yourself because I will walk off this blog probably to announce this doctrinal correction even more publicly. I have already written letters to several churches and mainstream ministries and have no problem starting a grassroots movement like Martin Luther if necessary to totally throw the fear mongerers out of the church like Christ did the moneychsngers all by himself.

    So grow up and stop taking on people too spiritually minded for you to handle. Learn from them instead. This is spiritual warfare. How are you going to win and overcome obstacles like an overcomer with a fear crowding out your own spiritual mind’s thought processes.

    Fears make people quit. They are mentally disabling and will keep you passive and milk fed in the cause of Christ. Exactly where the popes want people to be so they can take away the priesthood of believers and force a bureaucracy of priests on people.

    So think about it. I did and the Spirit told me to grow a big set of balls because carrying the Gospel isn’t for weaklings.

    I hope this helps. God transferred spiritual headship to me because I lived in a headless home but was always willing to learn His ways.

    This world will not beat God. God won’t lose 95 percent of humanity because God is an overcomer. He thinks like a winner so He is going to pull everyone through the baptism of fire and the Lake of Fire for others to purify them because He is holy.

    Read Acts 17:28. We are His offspring.

    So you should start listening to God in the Bible for a change. He says be not afraid 389 times in His book so when are you going to start believing Him and throw that fear doctrine out of your own head.
    Freedom must be maintained by patient, persevering courage. There is no other way of preserving freedom and sanity.

    I hope this helps you see the light better.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “You started the sling fest by calling me illogical and irrational in this thread which is something online militantly atheist trolls accuse ChrIstians of being so I am not reading you any longer.”
      .
      Your above comment is a BLATANT FLAT OUT LIE. You started the sling fest as you call it with your comments that were directed at me which are shown below. Which at the time I let go; well NO more. I call spades exactly what they are spades.
      .
      “SUSAN TAN says:
      March 29, 2018 at 6:59 am

      I have other more important things to think about and I am sick and tired of Christians toting this demon around not having the courage to re-examine things.

      So may His grace abound to you! Enough so that you can evict that fear demon like an overcomer and follow Christ without any man made or demonic fears troubling you at all.”
      .
      .
      “As you were already told I believe in predestination and election and the Bible does show that God controls the mechanism of conviction through the supernatural actions of the Holy Spirit so stop trying to prevent others from checking alternate doctrinal explanations for themselves by threatening them with your own fear doctrine construction.”
      .
      Do you have any concept as to what you are even talking about? This entire conversation to this point has been about “universalism”. Now it is about predestination? OK; so exactly how could I influence anyone or anything if it is all predestined to be a certain way? Your position makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO SENSE.
      .
      .
      As for the rest of your rant – you have some serious issues the least of which is me.
      .
      .
      That you can NOT provide a single verse to show that anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 ever gets out pretty much disproves your pet theory of “universalism”.
      .
      1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.

      Reply
  38. Susan says:

    Meant to say truly sane above. And I will proofread when and if I want to. Domineering people don’t frighten or control me.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “And I will proofread when and if I want to.”
      .
      Continue to embarrass yourself then. It only continues to show your intellectual laziness and further erodes any possible credibility you may have had left.

      Reply
  39. Susan says:

    The Apostle Paul did not teach on hell.
    Paul said: Acts 20:20
    I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house.
    He also said:
    ” I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).
    Yet not one word in Paul’s writings about hell.
    Check it here on biblegateway:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=hell&searchtype=any&version1=9&language1=en&bookset=10

    Jesus words in Mark 12:

    Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

    There is Jesus saying God is the God of the Living but Christians go around spewing a doctrinal lie about eternal torment as if it is part of the Good News. It is a lie because it comes from the natural mind of man not the spiritual mind and negates the Good News message and implies God is powerless and man’s will is in control.

    You keep believing in the will of men, Mark because you can’t toss out an evil doctrine that came from the fearful mind of man and I will continue to believe in the power of God to restore the whole world just like the scriptures say.

    Give the glory to God that He doesn’t suffer from a weak will or any human mental limitations at all.

    That is why we depend on Him instead of ourselves and others in times of trouble.

    Because he can do all things and is in control.

    That is one reason why He is called King of Kings.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “Christians go around spewing a doctrinal lie about eternal torment as if it is part of the Good News. It is a lie because it comes from the natural mind of man not the spiritual mind and negates the Good News message and implies God is powerless and man’s will is in control.”
      .
      Matthew 7:13-14 13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
      .
      Matthew 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
      .
      Revelation 20:14-15 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
      .
      Do you even have a concept of what you are talking about??????

      Reply
  40. Susan says:

    Take the word hell out of Jesus’ words and substitute the true meaning “Valley of Hinnom”.

    Hell is not a literal place it is a metaphor.

    Getting to the truth of a matter can require questioning authority.

    If Luther hadn’t done it the Church would still be selling God’s grace today.

    Reply
  41. Susan says:

    Jeremiah 7:31–32
    They (Judah) built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom (Gehenna) to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I (God) had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Notice God says it never entered His mind to burn children today. Burning people was a pagan practice and God is not a man to change His mind.

    So who deliberately changed the text and over laid the Bible with a false eternal torment doctrine?

    The Jehovah Witnesses changed the Bible. The Mormons in violation of Rev. 22 added to God’s wiord so who messed with the Bible to embed it with a false doctrine trying to control people with fear? The popes or someone in Catholic Church translation were the only ones controlling access so some people trace this back to Jerome and
    his Vulgate translation which was the only one sanctioned for use by Catholicism until reformers fought to get the Bible out of Latin into the vernacular languages.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      I have already corrected your faulty interpretation of this passage. Nothing has changed since then so you are still incorrect in thinking that these verses have anything to do with “universalism” being true or eternal punishment being non-biblical.

      Reply
  42. Susan Tan says:

    Bob et al atheists,
    If you are reading, and Bob you may be Bob Seidensticker who likes to debate Christianity, I hope you are taking note of the universal restoration position because you may have to re-think everything with your natural mind so God can enlighten you and build a new higher spiritual mind in you.

    Some Christians may owe the world an apology for not catching whoever perpetrated this false doctrine giving unbelievers a contradictory view of God. I finally see why Dawkins describes God in such slanderous terms but it could be whoever tried to sow this false doctrine into Christianity prejudiced him against God.

    God will win for everyone including you. He has the best and highest spiritual mind and will. Like the Bible says His ways are higher than man’s ways.

    Hopefully, this thread’s discussion did something to restore your faith in God’s character.

    Don’t forget though that repentance and baptism are still required so you can receive your spiritual anointing.

    God bless you and keep you!

    Reply
  43. Susan says:

    Some quotes from Bible scholars and early Church fathers on the salvation of all:

    From Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD):

    We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life.

    From St. Jerome (331-420 AD):

    In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one.

    From Olympiodorus (495-570 AD):

    Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons. The soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. The soul is punished for an eonian period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment its eon.

    From Diodorus of Tarsus (320-394 AD):

    For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them…the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them.

    St. Gregory of Nyssa (335-395 AD):

    Quote 1
    “For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body.”

    Quote 2:
    “For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body.”

    Quote 3:

    “Whoever considers the divine power will plainly perceive that it is able at length to restore by means of the aionion purging and atoning sufferings, those who have gone even to this extremity of wickedness.”

    Frederick D. Farrah, Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen of England wrote in his 1907 book:

    Frederick D. Farrar, who was Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen of England, we read about Augustine:

    The advocacy of hell came primarily on the scene with Augustine: In no other respect did Augustine differ more widely from Origen and the Alexandrians [Eastern Church] than in his intolerant spirit. Even Tertullian conceded to all the right of opinion.

    [Augustine] was the first in the long line of Christian persecutors, and illustrates the character of the theology that swayed him in the wicked spirit that impelled him to advocate the right to persecute Christians who differ from those in power. The dark pages that bear the record of subsequent centuries are a damning witness to the cruel spirit that actuated Christians, and the cruel theology that impelled it. Augustine was the first and ablest asserter of the principle which led to Albigensian crusades, Spanish armadas, Netherland’s butcheries, St. Bartholomew massacres, the accursed infamies of the Inquisition, the vile espionage, the hideous bale fires of Seville and Smithfield, the racks, the gibbets, the thumbscrews, and the subterranean torture-chambers used by churchly torturers.[v]

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      You suffer from a confused mind.
      .
      Plain and Simple and Straight Up provide a single verse from The Holy Bible that ever shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire from Revelation 20:15 as ever getting out. Otherwise let it go – Because “universalism” can NOT be true no matter how many people think it is or how many people you quote.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        A verse? You are very literal minded. I gave you several works explaining the Lake of Fire in detail. You did not read them.

        I am out of here. Like I have said in the past I am looking for people with the teachable spirit to discuss with but so few have it on message boards. I am suppose to tell the truth in love but your over competitive lack of self control make that impossible and I refuse to go down to your level.

        Have a nice life and seek out likeminded people as you really are not emotionally mature enough to handle a diversity of opinion.

        And start using your God given mind instead of cherry picking verses and demonstrate you have a spiritual mind by a command of the subject matter. Anyone can pull out a verse and say well God says this. But can you interpret what God says’

        To interpret you have to be able to move between literal and figurative but you balked at doing that trying to win without reasoning or reading the big picture interpretation scripture provides.

        The early church fathers all knew the salvation of all as they were raised on it until some mindless literal minded scripture quoting zealots determined to control the authority of God came along and persecuted them in the name of false religion.
        You remind me a lot of them. You refused to use your spiritual mind in favor of verse one up man ship so maybe you don’t have a fully formed spiritual mind. So you of all people need to read those books and let God open your mind for a change.

        I will pray for you, Brother. Have a blessed life.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          Been two weeks now since you said you were never posting here again. And yet for some reason you continue to post extremely long incoherent passages that fail to address even a single point or answer a single question I have asked. Could you possibly explain why that is? As for the rest of the rant you suffer from a confused mind. You call yourself an expert on “universalism” yet you can NOT provide a single passage from The Holy Bible that ever shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 getting out? Now why do you suppose that is?

          Reply
  44. Susan says:

    Rvelarion requires a childlike open mindedness toward Giod because it brings change from God.

    Spiritual growth requires change.

    Don’t let anyone but God control your spiritual growth as the scriptures say. God gives each of his children the Holy Spirit as their tutor so we don’t have to submit our spirits to others who refuse to grow and change as God directs. At least not once we reach spiritual maturity. But not everyone reaches spiritual maturity any more than everyone reaches emotional maturity in the natural world.

    Someone trying to control you or control revelation show signs of being a control freak and control freaks develop from internal fear issues.

    Never let a control freak control you. If you do then you become a mindless puppet without freedom just like them and God didn’t make you that way. He makes people with their own reasoning capability so they can establish their own unique identities in Him. So we open to revelation and let Him lead us into spiritual growth. People are only a guide sometimes and not to supplant God’s role in the life of a believer but a lot of people aren’t good at spiritual boundary maintenance which allows the zealots to get away with things.

    Stay open to God and revelation and you won’t become a believing or an unbelievering mindless zealot.

    Don’t let the world steal your innocent childlike qualities. They help you grow spiritually by remaining open to revelation.

    We have atheist zealots and religious zealots because they are close minded and hardened in their minds and determined to seize authority and rule over others.

    Watch out for them. Maintaining freedom requires courage and wisdom. So be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove.

    That way you can spot the control freaks early and escape away unscathed to live and love in freedom and sanity another day because this day is all we have. No one knows if he will wake up to have another day or not. Only God does.

    We teach the scriptures to set people free spiritually. It doesn’t mean everyone starts out in
    the right frame of mind to receive a godly education because this world is hard on people. Some people are wrecked in their cradles by poor parenting and environment so take all your troubles to God and ask Him for help solving your problems.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “We teach the scriptures to set people free spiritually.”
      .
      By the word “we” here you must mean that you have a mouse in your pocket that does this portion because all you seem capable of doing is quoting another man or sending someone to a book other than The Bible to read what another man has to say about your pet theory of “universalism”. Yet when I ask for a single Scripture to show that anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20;15 ever gets out. NOTHING BUT CRICKETS.
      .
      .
      Chirp, chirp………………..

      Reply
      • toby says:

        Is there any revelation other than the bible? Because if you grant that there is, then it doesn’t matter what verse you point to because it could have been revealed to someone that a verse is changed or clarified. And you just don’t believe it or accept it.
        .
        Please note, I’m not rooting for either of your sides. I’m just throwing some kindling on the fire. You’ve posted replies that you think I’m hoping she’s right. I don’t think the bible is a valid source of anything, I’m just trying to make conversation that probes what you think, how you think it.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Hannah Whitall Smith claimed to receive a personal revelation from God that all are saved and wrote about it in the last chapter of a famous book she wrote but her publishers censored her and printed the book without that chapter. You can read it on the Tentmaker site.

          You can see by the quotes above it was the position of the church until around the 6th century when it changed. There are a lot of people who have wrote books on the history of this but the subject is not common knowledge. But the Reformation was the Reformers battling the Church. The Church really only split under Luther when he started to see the pope as the antichrist. Before that he was only trying to reform the Church. But eventually he broke away. The Catholic Church has killed or attacked lots of people for questioning papal authority. They declared the pope infallible in 1870 but he is not and recently the current Pope Francis who is a socialist gave the annihilationist view as his position when the Catholics have always believed in eternal torment.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “But the Reformation was the Reformers battling the Church. The Church really only split under Luther when he started to see the pope as the antichrist. Before that he was only trying to reform the Church. But eventually he broke away. The Catholic Church has killed or attacked lots of people for questioning papal authority. They declared the pope infallible in 1870 but he is not and recently the current Pope Francis who is a socialist gave the annihilationist view as his position when the Catholics have always believed in eternal torment.”
            .
            That you have a problem with The Roman Catholic Church we get. What you do NOT get is this is the WRONG venue to vent those issues. I have never been nor will I ever be a Roman Catholic. So take your issues with them to the proper site and vent away. Because here it only further confuses your already confused mind.

        • Susan says:

          I am taking a break Toby. I just tried to make people aware of the salvation of all doctrine. I stumbled on it years ago, read about it and now believe it.

          We have all the verses any other Christian does but we interpret them differently and we look at the history and key word mistranslations.

          I feel I have said enough and excited the zealots who never checked all the positions.

          But quite a few Christians raised with eternal torment beliefs have examinded the scriptures, history and mistranslations too and come to the same conclusion as I did.

          People with minds uncoerced by the church do things like that.

          They challenge authority like Luther did because they value truth over unity because the unity is suppose to be based on the truth.

          So as I am going thru a personally busy period I will leave this thread.

          It is a lot of work exposing a doctrinal lie and sometimes makes one unpopular but the truth is still the truth.

          The eternal torment doctrine and annihilationist doctrine flush the destiny of so many people down the toilet without so much as a backward glance because this kind of doctrinal work requires time and effort plus they like being right.
          But the doctrine is a glaring contradiction because the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a kind and merciful God.
          So when He has so much power wouldn’t he use it to restore everyone. Did Christ really die to redeem only a small portion of the Creation when it says God will be all in all?

          No we have people who have interpretive blocks in their own minds depicting God as a pagan fIre God because they can not understand figurative language in their own minds and cherry pick the literal in this doctrinal instance.

          God’s holy merciful character must align with His words and his deeds only they don’t under the eternal torment doctrine so it is a doctrinal error forced into Christians’ thoughtlives.

          This eternal torment lie is most likely one of the reasons that people blaspheme God.

          Grace is the better way. To simply believe and be born again. There are bound to be ramifications for missing your spiritual birth in this lifetime but some people may be missing it from this perceived threat from eternal torment.

          Read 1 Cor.5. It tells believers not to judge unbelievers but Christians deliver the evil torment doctrine to the world all the time as if they are doing this world a favor.

          I watched a Baptist online once tell unbelievers every week that they were going to hell. At that time I believed in hell, too. Then I learned differently but the alienation and damage was done in the minds of those unbelievers.

          The word has supernatural power. It is alive and active unless you water it down with error and ideas from the mind of man.

          Catholicism did so much damage to Christianity with doctrinal error that we are still struggling today.

          So as an unbeliever this is really your issue to research and establish.

          I tried to do it for you to get you a right understanding but it is better if unbelievers examine the positions themselves so they can own a position and be able to understand and explain it themselves.

          But now you read the Gospel. If Forrest Gump knew not to leave a man behind do you really think the Almighty merciful God of the Bible is going to let man destroy themselves for forever based on their own ignorant reasoning and weak wills?

          No, because he is God and as Abraham perceived and said “I see that you will always do what is right.”

          We trust in Him not in ourselves and our own weakminded, weak willed reasoning.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “I just tried to make people aware of the salvation of all doctrine. I stumbled on it years ago, read about it and now believe it.”
            .
            Yet you can NOT provide any Scripture based on it that you have NOT taken OUT OF CONTEXT. Plain and Simple and Straight Up provide a single verse from The Holy Bible that ever shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire from Revelation 20:15 as ever getting out. Otherwise let it go – Because “universalism” can NOT be true no matter how many people think it is or how many people you quote.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “It is a lot of work exposing a doctrinal lie and sometimes makes one unpopular but the truth is still the truth.”
            .
            I find this NOT to be the case. Just ask for Scriptural evidence like Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse from The Holy Bible. Then make sure the evidence is NOT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. And you have your proof one way or the other. The TRUTH defends itself and can NOT be broken. The LIE collapses under the weight of its own attempted proof.
            .
            Want an example of this: Just look at this thread. Both sides of the argument started out as reasonable. I asked for proof of her position from The Scriptures of The Holy Bible and she has yet to provide a single one that she has NOT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT to prove her point. When pressed she began to attack me personally. When I initially ignored those she instead started to deflect by changing the subject. And even now she continually deflects. Even to the point of this:
            .
            “SUSAN says:
            April 12, 2018 at 1:48 pm
            Take the word hell out of Jesus’ words and substitute the true meaning “Valley of Hinnom”.
            Hell is not a literal place it is a metaphor.
            Getting to the truth of a matter can require questioning authority.”
            .
            WHAT ??????????????? Jesus used the WRONG word ???????????
            REALLY ?????????????????????????????????????????????????
            And she thinks to correct Him ????????????????????????????????
            .
            .
            If Forrest Gump knew not to leave a man behind do you really think the Almighty merciful God of the Bible is going to let man destroy themselves for forever based on their own ignorant reasoning and weak wills?
            .
            Comparing GOD to a movie character. REALLY ??????
            .
            Caption added by The Berean Study Bible.
            And this is Jesus speaking here in John 3:16-21.
            Personally, I think Verse 18 refutes her comment COMPLETELY.
            .
            For God So Loved
            John 3;16-21 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness more than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be clearly seen that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

  45. Susan says:

    As a man thinks in his heart so he is. Proverbs 23:7

    The Word contains God’s powerful ideas designed to raise God’s holy children. What we entertain in our hearts affects our actions.

    Some people seriously entertain God’s Word in their heart. They mix it with faith and take action.

    But others lie dormant because they dismiss God and refuse to give Him any attention at all in their thoughtlives. Maybe they don’t care what God thinks maybe they think they know it all already.

    But the doctrine makes the man because our thoughtlives become our motives to action.

    And we are washed and regenerated by the
    Word in our minds and being and this is bound to bring some sort of spiritual change in a person.

    But some people resist being changed by God and the Bible calls them disobedient.

    If you can’t grasp who God is then you can’t submit long enough to Him to learn His ways, can you?

    Christ is our deliverer but the individual still bears some responsibility for his own spiritual birth, doesn’t he?

    How are you delivered leaving everything up to the pastor and not getting active and involving yourself in the whole spiritual birth process?

    Reply
  46. Susan says:

    Theology is where man’s mind meets God’s and you don’t let a pack of men’s erroneous interpretations keep you from going further into that light. Doing that may cut you off from their evil thoughts and ways but at least you now have a
    proper understanding of who God is and are not subimitying to the ignorance of know it all men. Humble men know they don’t know it all as there is always more to learn about God and the Bible.

    Do don’t let them succeed in making their shortcomings your shortcomings.

    Go into the light of revelation and don’t let the false prophet philosophers hold you back.

    The best interpretation is the godly one but it is hard to receive it if you are willing to settle for less than the truth.

    In theology we are suppose to be studying God so we can self correct and spot the errors of sin.

    Sin is defined as “missing God’s mark”.

    You can have God’s anointed thoughts in your head or the beastly world system’s mark. It all depends on what you dedicate yourself to. Godly understanding or worldly ignorance.

    Most sane people would choose to be set apart to God rather than marked by the beast system but revelation is a growth process and the spirit of revelation is given to the spiritually minded not the naturally literal minded.

    There are overly literal minded people. Read about it. It is hard to reason with people who’s minds are set a certain way.

    Some of these people may think they are set God’s way but they are wrong if a false prophet philosopher taught them to put the literal (letter) ahead of the spiritual.

    You may have God’s Word but you still have to interpret it according to Biblical rules given in the Bible not given by context.

    The whole context IS the divine nature of God.

    So get a good picture view of God and stop letting the ignorant spiritually prideful believers deceive your understanding. That is what a false prophet philosopher does. Deceives people.

    God Bless everyone reading.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “SUSAN says:
      March 25, 2018 at 2:08 pm
      I am not a nswering you further Mark.”
      .
      “SUSAN TAN says:
      March 29, 2018 at 6:59 am
      We’re done discussing this subject”
      .
      “SUSAN says:
      April 10, 2018 at 3:26 pm
      Done here.”
      .
      “SUSAN says:
      April 10, 2018 at 4:03 pm
      Oh one last comment Mark.”
      .
      When someone tells me they are going to do something I tend to believe them. When they tell me they are going to do something and then do NOT they damage their own credibility. When someone tells me they are going to do something four separate times and still fail to do it. Well they have ZERO credibility remaining as they have proven themselves to be unreliable.
      .
      .
      So the question remains. Please provide Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse from The Holy Bible that shows anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire as ever getting out. Goes without saying that it has to be used IN CONTEXT. Not like you have misinterpreted the Jeremiah 7 passage previously and been corrected for doing it.
      .
      Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
      .
      .
      “So get a good picture view of God and stop letting the ignorant spiritually prideful believers deceive your understanding.”
      .
      Hmmmmm, you mean like this? This is Jesus speaking here in John 3:16-18. Because by Jesus’ own words in Verse 18 he seems to refute your pet theory of “universalism”. Of course you will probably want to change Jesus’ words here like you have done in another place in this thread already because they do NOT match you pet theory.
      .
      John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        You really are literal minded, aren’t you.

        I can have the human impulse to be done but the Holy Spirit might give me the divine impulse to correct you.

        And if that wasn’t enough an intelligent person has the ability to change his mind as Einstein said.

        Why should I let your condemning spirit get the last word.

        Luke 9:

        4When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          Do you have NO concept of the word “liar”?????????
          .
          .
          “I can have the human impulse to be done but the Holy Spirit might give me the divine impulse to correct you. And if that wasn’t enough an intelligent person has the ability to change his mind as Einstein said.”
          .
          Do your ramblings actually have some point or meaning?
          .
          .
          “Why should I let your condemning spirit get the last word.”
          .
          I can only assume by this that you are making some negative comment about John 3:16-18. To which I would refer you to John 10:34-35 below where Jesus says that the Scripture can NOT be broken. Then ask you what you think the word “perish” means in verse 16 and the phrase “has already been condemned” means in verse 18? Otherwise; I am clueless as to what you are talking about.
          .
          John 10:34-35 34 Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’ ? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broke—
          .
          .
          Yet again let me properly quote Scripture for you as you seem incapable. This is by all semblance of reason becoming ridiculous on your part.
          .
          Luke 9:54-56 54 When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”
          .
          Now that we have that out of the way perhaps you could attempt to explain to me what these three verses have to do with the discussion of “universalism”. Perhaps you should go and read what the commentaries have to say on them first though.
          Links provided:
          http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/9-54.htm
          http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/9-55.htm
          http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/9-56.htm

          Reply
  47. Susan says:

    You are really literal minded and it blinds you from checking and comparing spiritual perspectives. Some people really do have greater revelations than others and they struggle to interpret the revelations sometimes.

    All some people want to do is receive God’s revelation that is why the sit in mental contemplation of the scriptures all day receiving a deeper divine communication and understanding.

    How do Reformers start reforming if it is not based on a deeper revelation from God to do that.

    You are not doing anyone a service condemning anyone early though.

    All fate judgments are entrusted to Jesus.

    And we should not be limiting God’s live, mercy or power with our limited understanding.

    All of the Word is based on ancient languages.

    To our shame too few of us get the appropriate language proficiency.

    I don’t have it myself but I know to look for the most spiritual interpretations because they are based on God’s nature.

    Not everyone is starting from the same set of circumstances so you had better be wielding those verses more carefully.

    The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. That is from the Old Testament.

    Since then Jesus has come to give us a better understanding.

    Rehabilitation of the sinner is a far nobler goal than mere punishment.

    Too bad the Romans substituted their mindset for God’s on this.

    Jones is an expert on God’s law and he explains the law was given to rehabilitate sinners and more importantly make restitution to the victim not punish the sinners.

    That is the mind of God revealed behind the intent of His Laws but very few study God’s law these days.

    It is all grace and free will for a limited picture of God’s intents and purposes.

    We are all spiritual orphans without God including atheists so why are we so quick to condemn them for not understanding God’s big picture view.

    It could be because we are spiritually lazy and just learning the spiritual birth concept takes time.

    Everyone should be in the scriptures all the time letting God raise them personally instead we let this job fall to designated people who claim to have a calling.

    But God calls to everyone. But most people aren’t obedient enough to come when they are called.

    If it weren’t for the popes this world would probably be Christian by now.

    But the popes cannot ultimately overcome God’s will.

    God raised up the Muslims to correct the Church.

    Nothing that happens in this world happens without it being God’s will.

    Our wills are not controlling.

    Go look up the
    “Lord willing,” passage.

    Google “Lord willing, bible verse” and it will come up on biblegateway or Bible hub.

    I know how to locate commentaries. I told atheists to do it for years in an atheist forum.

    But we are locating the best interpretation to understand God.

    Sometimes the best understandings are
    not orthodox or mainstream.

    That is why you have to seek.

    God rewards seekers and seeking is not a lazy activity. It involves the mind to a high degree.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Lack of proof reading is this sign of a lazy mind. Even more so when you have been told multiple times about it.

      Reply
  48. Susan says:

    Did they really remove all the quotes from the early Church fathers endorsing the universal salvation of all people that I placed in this thread.

    All censorship does is stop free thinking. God doesn’t stop us from thinking but it seems some eternal tormentists do.

    I don’t know why men think they can control interpretations when they can’t even read the ancient languages but they do it seems.

    Imagine facing God some day explaining you let the false interpretation of men control
    you when there were a lot more verses in the Bible giving a clearer picture of the truth.

    It’s bad enough we had the false immortality of the soul belief perpetuated in the world causing a false heaven and hell dichotomy but now we all have to buck religious censorship in establishing truth
    for ourselves.

    Some people don’t care what censors say. Martin Luther didn’t that is why the pope could not silence him because he refused to be censored.

    Context is not controlling on all interpretation.

    Sproul explains: the appropriate approach to systematic theology recognizes that the Bible itself contains a system of truth, and it is the task of the theologian not to impose a system upon the Bible, but to build a theology by understanding the system that the Bible teaches.

    From Practical Principles of Biblical Interpretation, Ligonier Ministries
    More here:
    https://www.ligonier.org/blog/practical-principles-biblical-interpretation/

    Reply
  49. Susan says:

    I admit I am no where near as good at Biblical research as Dr. Ernest L. Martin or Dr. Stephen E. Jones or the Reverend John Wesley Hanson or a Seth Tipton but I am not afraid to ask a question.

    And here is something I found. A large list of all the verses containing either olam or aion showing by cross comparison of the word usage that neither word means eternal.

    Feel free to check this cite list drawn from The Time Periods of Salvation, Part 1, article.

    ADDENDUM 1: Hebrew Olam
    (not part of the booklet text)

    If you wish to make a complete study, all the occurrances of the Hebrew noun olam in the Old Testament are in these listed verses. I put the list in the proper manuscript order. There are no adjectives of olam in Hebrew. (Hebrew has few adjectives.) Insert the word “age” or “eon” at the appropriate place in the verse. DWS

    Genesis 3:22; 6:3f; 9:12, 16; 13:15; 17:7f, 13, 19; 21:33; 48:4; 49:26

    Exodus 3:15; 12:14, 17, 24; 14:13; 15:18; 19:9; 21:6; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9, 28; 30:21; 31:16f; 32:13; 40:15

    Leviticus 3:17; 6:18, 22; 7:34, 36; 10:9, 15; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8f; 25:32, 34, 46

    Numbers 10:8; 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19, 23; 19:10, 21; 25:13

    Deuteronomy 5:29; 12:28; 13:16; 15:17; 23:3, 6; 28:46; 29:29; 32:7, 40; 33:15, 27

    Joshua 4:7; 8:28; 14:9; 24:2

    Judges 2:1

    1 Samuel 1:22; 2:30; 3:13f; 13:13; 20:15, 23, 42; 27:8, 12

    2 Samuel 3:28; 7:13, 16, 24ff, 29; 12:10; 22:51; 23:5

    1 Kings 1:31; 2:33, 45; 8:13; 9:3, 5; 10:9

    2 Kings 5:27; 21:7

    Isaiah 9:7; 14:20; 24:5; 25:2; 26:4; 30:8; 32:14, 17; 33:14; 34:10, 17; 35:10; 40:8, 28; 42:14; 44:7; 45:17; 46:9; 47:7; 51:6, 8f, 11; 54:8; 55:3,

    13; 56:5; 57:11, 16; 58:12; 59:21; 60:15, 19ff; 61:4, 7f; 63:9, 11f, 16, 19; 64:4f

    Jeremiah 2:20; 3:5, 12; 5:15, 22; 6:16; 7:7; 10:10; 17:4, 25; 18:15f; 20:11, 17; 23:40; 25:5, 9, 12; 28:8; 31:3, 40; 32:40; 33:11; 35:6; 49:13, 33, 36; 50:5; 51:26, 39, 57, 62

    Ezekiel 16:60; 25:15; 26:20f; 27:36; 28:19; 35:5, 9; 36:2; 37:25f, 28; 43:7, 9; 46:1

    Hosea 2:19

    Joel 2:2, 26f; 3:20

    Amos 9:11

    Obadiah 1:10

    Jonah 2:6

    Micah 2:9; 4:5, 7; 5:2; 7:14

    Habakkuk. 3:6

    Zepheniah 2:9

    Zechariah 1:5

    Malachi. 1:4; 3:4

    Psalms 5:11; 9:5, 7; 10:16; 12:7; 15:5; 18:50; 21:4; 24:7, 9; 25:6; 28:9; 29:10; 30:6, 12; 31:1; 33:11; 37:18, 27f; 41:12f; 44:8; 45:2, 6, 17; 48:8, 14; 49:8, 11; 52:8f; 55:22; 61:4, 7;

    66:7; 71:1; 72:17, 19; 73:12, 26; 75:9; 77:5, 7; 78:66, 69; 79:13; 81:15; 85:5; 86:12; 89:1f, 4, 28, 36f, 52; 90:2; 92:8; 93:2; 100:5; 102:12; 103:9, 17; 104:5; 31; 105:8, 10; 106:1, 31, 48; 107:1; 110:4; 111:5, 8f; 112:6; 113:2; 115:18; 117:2; 118:1ff, 29; 119:44, 52, 89, 93, 98, 111f, 142, 144, 152, 160; 121:8; 125:1f; 131:3; 133:3; 135:13; 136:1ff; 138:8; 139:24; 143:3; 145:1f, 13, 21; 146:6, 10; 148:6

    Proverbs 8:23; 10:25, 30; 22:28; 23:10; 27:24

    Lamentations 3:6, 31; 5:19

    Ecclesiastes 1:4, 10; 2:16; 3:11, 14; 9:6; 12:5

    Daniel 9:24; 12:2f, 7

    Ezra 3:11; 9:12

    Nehemiah 2:3; 9:5; 13:1; Job 7:16; 22:15; 41:4

    1 Chronicles 15:2; 16:15, 17, 34, 36, 41; 17:12, 14, 22ff, 27; 22:10; 23:13, 25; 28:4, 7f; 29:10, 18

    2 Chronicles 2:4; 5:13; 6:2; 7:3, 6, 16; 9:8; 13:5; 20:7, 21; 30:8; 33:4

    ADDENDUM 2: Greek Aion
    (not part of the booklet text)

    Here are all verses where the Greek noun aion occurs in the New Testament. The list is in proper manuscript order. Note that the English word “eon” is derived from Greek aion. Insert the word “age” or “eon” at the appropriate place in the verse. DWS

    Matthew 6:13; 12:32; 13:22, 39f, 49; 21:19; 24:3; 28:20

    Mark 3:29; 4:19; 10:30; 11:14

    Luke 1:33, 55, 70; 16:8; 18:30; 20:34f

    John 4:14; 6:51, 58; 8:35, 51f; 9:32; 10:28; 11:26; 12:34; 13:8; 14:16

    Acts 3:21; 15:18

    1 Peter 1:23, 25; 4:11; 5:11

    2 Peter 2:17; 3:18

    1 John 2:17

    2 John 1:2

    Jude 1:13, 25

    Romans 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 12:2; 16:27

    1 Corinthians 1:20; 2:6ff; 3:18; 8:13; 10:11

    2 Corinthians 4:4; 9:9; 11:31

    Galatians 1:4f

    Ephesians 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9, 11, 21; 6:12

    Philippians 4:20

    Colossians 1:26

    Hebrews 1:2, 8; 5:6; 6:5, 20; 7:17, 21, 24, 28; 9:26; 11:3; 13:8, 21

    1 Timothy 1:17; 6:17

    2 Timothy 4:10, 18

    Titus 2:12

    Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9f; 5:13f; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5

    ADDENDUM 3: Greek Aionios
    (not part of the booklet text)

    Here are all the occurrances of the Greek adjective aionios in the New Testament. Again, the list is in proper manuscript order. Insert the word “age-lasting” or “eonian” at the appropriate place in the verse. DWS

    Matthew 18:8; 19:16, 29; 25:41, 46

    Mark 3:29; 10:17, 30

    Luke 10:25; 16:9; 18:18, 30

    John 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f

    Acts 13:46, 48

    1 Peter 5:10

    2 Peter 1:11

    1 John 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20

    Jude 1:7, 21

    Romans 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; 16:25f

    2 Corinthians 4:17f; 5:1

    Galatians 6:8

    How olam and aion are currently being mistranslated in many mainstream bibles currently
    causing the false eternal torment doctrine to persist in mainstream Christianity explained here.
    Obviously for copyright reasons I cannot post every quote so anyone interested can read it.

    The Time Periods of Salvarion, Part 1
    http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm

    Universalism is not a New Age heresy. It was the stated doctrinal belief of the early church fathers.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Seriously, 6 days is all the longer you can stay gone?
      .
      And still the question remains: Show a single verse from The Holy Bible used in PROPER CONTEXT that ever shows anyone thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 as ever getting out. If you can NOT then let it go because you pet theory of “universalism” can NOT be true.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Have you read Ernest L Martin’s online article
        “Where is the Lake of Fire?”

        Martin writes:

        (7) A final seventh factor to consider is John’s teaching that this Lake of the Fire will cease to exist after the Great White Throne period. This is because John says “the former things [including the Lake of the Fire] are passed away. Behold, I make all things NEW” (Revelation 21:4–5). The area in which this lake is found will one day be healed and made new. Interestingly, there are some important scriptures that speak of a prominent lake being healed.

        You should try investigating the scriptures more and controlling interpretation less you might learn something.

        Some interpretations of the Lake are literal and some are symbolic.

        But the good news is God is in control not you or your highly vengeful interpretation.

        I hope you repent and have a
        complete change of heart because I would not wish an eternal literal fire on anything much less a human being and God would not either. He is not Molech and the scriptures say Sodom will be restored.

        Go google it.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          Can you ever read more than just the verse you are TAKING OUT OF CONTEXT ?????
          .
          I suggest you go actually READ verse 8 until you understand it. Just ridiculous.
          .
          Revelation 21:4-8 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

          Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      See above. I am embarrassed for you. It took me all of 5 minutes to look up and read the whole passage from Revelation 21 verse 1 thru verse 8. At which point you pet theory of “universalism” is yet again REFUTED by Scripture.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        You did not refute anything. You don’t know the scriptures well enough to refute a universalist and you have refused to consult the ancient language translations demonstrating your ignorance when several essays were named providing the language analysis.

        You are ASSUMING the translators who are human made no translation errors.

        But translation errors are a fact and many bible scholars acknowledge that no translation is perfect.

        You have refuted nothing. You have just demonstrated you could not check the scriptures for the longer more complete explanations.

        I think you aren’t teachable by the attitude you display so you need to dialog with someone else.

        I would never tell someone they are going to hell because I cannot judge a human heart and neither can you.

        I hope people read the links posted. Then they have more info for a more informed mind.

        A translation error is a provable fact.

        So you trusted in man and his limited interpretive ability. Not only that you make God look self contradictory like He is not able to accomplish His stated purpose to save the world.

        You think God has to respect a sinful person’s free will when the Bible specifically says He is the Potter and we are the clay and the clay doesn’t talk back to the Potter.

        The Bible says God drags us to Him. That is the word drag used to describe the apostles dragging fish up in the Net when Jesus told them to lower their net.

        There is no free will in being dragged.

        God is working everything out in ages.

        “That in the ages [aions] to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

        Ephesians 2:7

        Ages plural….to come!

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “You did not refute anything.”
          .
          Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
          .
          Yeah I suppose you are correct. I am just a man – not for me to refute anything. Your issue is that Scripture from The Holy Bible keeps REFUTING you. If not explain the verse above please.
          .
          “So you trusted in man and his limited interpretive ability.”
          .
          As it is you who continue to quote men while I quote Scripture then I think it is obvious who your comment actually applies to here.
          .
          .
          Ephesians 2:1-10 1 As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. 4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
          .
          And still you continue taking Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT. Ephesians 2:1-10 is written specifically about Saved Christians NOT everyone. Of course, you would know this if you had any reading comprehension or bothered to read any of the commentaries that explain it in detail. Of course in your fantasy world of “universalism” all of the commentaries are wrong as well. Link provided: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/2-7.htm
          .
          Perhaps you could explain John 3:16-18 to me as well???
          .
          Specifically the word “perish” in verse 16 and all of verse 18 ?
          .
          John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
          .
          Or perhaps you can explain this verse?
          .
          Matthew 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

          Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “You don’t know the scriptures well enough to refute a universalist ”
          .
          And yet it is you who continue to use Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT and use single verses to try and imply that “universalism” is true only to have the passage if read as a whole REFUTE your claim.
          .
          .
          “You have just demonstrated you could not check the scriptures for the longer more complete explanations.”
          .
          Do you have any comprehension of how ridiculous you look when you make statements like this. Multiple times throughout this argument it has been you who FAILS to read the entire passage. Instead you use single verses that are REFUTED by the verses that immediately follow.
          .
          .
          “I think you aren’t teachable by the attitude you display so you need to dialog with someone else.”
          .
          My attitude ??? I suggest you go look in the mirror. I am NOT the one twisting Scripture to fit my pet theory. That would be you.
          .
          .
          “I would never tell someone they are going to hell because I cannot judge a human heart and neither can you.”
          .
          Funny I thought you would never tell someone they are going to hell because of “universalism”. I fail to see how quoting Scripture is judgmental. Please explain.

          Reply
          • toby says:

            How to you respond to things like 1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
            .
            Kind of seems to say he saves all people.

  50. Susan says:

    The wages of sin are death that is why Christ died for us.

    If the wages of sin were eternal hell fire then Jesus would have to still be there paying our debt but we see he is ascended sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection are an accomplished work. He said it himself
    “It is finished.”

    But if hell were the penalty for sin then His work would not be accomplished. Christ would have to still be in hell paying for us.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      Well you certainly know how to paraphrase and twist Scripture up into knots and confuse yourself now don’t you.
      .
      You seem to be incapable of separating saved believers from non-believers. While everyone who has EVER been born falls into one group or the other. They are NOT one group and the two groups are NOT treated the same throughout The New Testament.
      .
      .
      “But if hell were the penalty for sin then His work would not be accomplished. Christ would have to still be in hell paying for us.”
      .
      You are a severely confused mind.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Have a nice life. Jesus is the Word and we believe in his finished work on the Cross and his resurrection in the flesh to be a Christian.

        Faith in Christ is the gift of God and God is my Judge. I don’t answer to you or have to respect your false doctrinal constructions about hell.

        The unbelievers are judged by the Word. That is why we should have had the mistranslation error sorted out by now and the false eternal torment doctrine exposed for the lie/error that it is.
        .
        Berean Study Bible

        John 12:48
        The one rejecting Me and not receiving My words has one judging him: The word which I spoke, that will judge him in the last day.

        Did some person regularly threaten you with hell to make you believe in Christ?

        Why does anyone need a threat?

        An honest person does not need a threat. An honest person knows Christ lived a sinless, perfect life from his words and deeds. So obviously he is of divine origin.

        If you need fear to undergird your belief system that is up to you but I don’t need it.

        I believe in the good Lord Jesus. I believe he will always pull me through the baptism of fire when it counts and if he doesn’t then it is my time to leave this evil world and go home to God.

        First John 2:15-16 says, “Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.”

        Every Christian should be busy rooting out the evil world’s value system and that includes false doctrinal ideas that come from the world.

        There is a second death for many but when God says He is reconciling everything in heaven and earth I believe Him.

        God could kill you twice and still raise you to be all in all.

        If I were you I would cast that fear out and love and believe in the goodness of God more.

        You mixed up his penalty but someone probably planted a lie into the text to fool you.

        So thank God he is in control if a whole herd of people can be so easily deceived.

        Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “There is a second death for many but when God says He is reconciling everything in heaven and earth I believe Him.”
          .
          Please provide Scripture for your “when God says He is reconciling everything in heaven and earth I believe Him” comment. Translation, Book, Chapter, and Verse.
          .
          Please explain to me how a second death for many can possibly be part of the “universalist” – all are saved theory? You only continue to become more confusing the longer you attempt to explain anything.

          Reply
        • Mark Heavlin says:

          “You mixed up his penalty but someone probably planted a lie into the text to fool you.”
          .
          Do you have any concept of Scriptural Proof from The Bible? You are such a severely confused mind. It is you who continually misinterpret Scripture by taking it OUT OF CONTEXT. Writing ten thousand words about nothing and then claiming they mean what you say they mean.

          Reply
  51. Susan Tan says:

    And one last thing for you to meditate on Mark possibly the most important verse of the Bible:

    “God’s love never fails.”

    Men will fail God and men give people faulty doctrines but God will not fail men.

    There is the key verse above. Put it with the other key verse “God is love. ”

    Don’t miss the big picture of who God is to please people. Most people pleaders have a fear of man.

    They should have sought God’s approval before giving in to men.

    Psalm 136 Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    God’s Love Never Fails
    136 Praise the Lord! He is good.
    God’s love never fails.
    2 Praise the God of all gods.
    God’s love never fails.
    3 Praise the Lord of lords.
    God’s love never fails.
    4 Only God works great miracles.[a]
    God’s love never fails.
    5 With wisdom he made the sky.
    God’s love never fails.
    6 The Lord stretched the earth
    over the ocean.
    God’s love never fails.
    7 He made the bright lights
    in the sky.
    God’s love never fails.
    8 He lets the sun rule each day.
    God’s love never fails.
    9 He lets the moon and the stars
    rule each night.
    God’s love never fails.
    10 God struck down the first-born
    in every Egyptian family.
    God’s love never fails.
    11 He rescued Israel from Egypt.
    God’s love never fails.
    12 God used his great strength
    and his powerful arm.
    God’s love never fails.
    13 He split the Red Sea[b] apart.
    God’s love never fails.
    14 The Lord brought Israel safely
    through the sea.
    God’s love never fails.
    15 He destroyed the Egyptian king
    and his army there.
    God’s love never fails.
    16 The Lord led his people
    through the desert.
    God’s love never fails.
    17 Our God defeated mighty kings.
    God’s love never fails.
    18 And he killed famous kings.
    God’s love never fails.
    19 One of them was Sihon,
    king of the Amorites.
    God’s love never fails.
    20 Another was King Og of Bashan.
    God’s love never fails.
    21 God took away their land.
    God’s love never fails.
    22 He gave their land to Israel,
    the people who serve him.
    God’s love never fails.
    23 God saw the trouble we were in.
    God’s love never fails.
    24 He rescued us from our enemies.
    God’s love never fails.
    25 He gives food to all who live.
    God’s love never fails.
    26 Praise God in heaven!
    God’s love never fails.

    Reply
    • Susan Tan says:

      Meant to say people pleasers above.

      And stop ad hominem attacking me about my editing.

      You should work on mastering that critical spirit.

      Christians are suppose to be encouragers.

      This world already has enough people with evil critical spirits.

      Reply
        • Susan says:

          Each is saved in his own order.

          People still need to repent, be born again and change their evil worldly ways for God’s ways.

          Spiritual birth is a basic human right that people are ignorant of unless they read the Bible.

          And there are two resurrections. The first is for the blessed and holy.

          Not everyone is surrendering to God to let Him make them like Him are they?

          There will be a future kingdom and some people will rule with Christ and some won’t.

          The apostles were Christ’s hand picked men. All raised in the scriptures then taught and corrected by Christ himself.

          Christians are given the Holy Spirit as their tutor while Christ is in heaven out of sight but not out of mind.

          God has given notice to the world that He exists through Christ and His people serving the Gospel are serving up the adoption notice as well. The Bible does contain the glorious doctrine of adoption.

          Of course, how can you get your heart right with God and be adopted into His family if you buy all the world’s lies about Christ.

          Check Christ in the scriptures. That is where you get an accurate picture of him. The world likes to distort the truth but he is sinless and perfect something impossible for a human to be.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Each is saved in his own order.”
            .
            I have already shown elsewhere that yet again you are taking Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT. This passage deals with the order of resurrection of everyone. It does NOT deal with “universalism” – all people being saved.
            .
            My quote from above : “First Corinthian’s 15: 21-26 – Deals with the “order of resurrection” of all people. It does NOT deal with “Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation”. It also does NOT deal with Judgement at the end of time.”

        • Susan says:

          I am glad you are paying attention Toby. It is not normal for me to argue with a Christian but maybe I should be arguing with them more than atheists. Normally a Christian corrects another Christian. We aren’t supposed to be arguing the scriptures with other Christians. As far as possible we are suppose to be living in peace with others.

          Apologists purport to be defending the Gospel and they all agree God loves everyone then they accept this eternal torment lie that makes God look like He only chooses to love certain people. That is the result of eternal torment and free will.

          But you can’t be a repentant Christian unless God gives you the gift of repentance so why are these Christians talking about hell at all? They are trying to force people’s wills with a false doctrine but Paul never forced anyone. He sougt to persuade them with God’s love for them.

          I do not believe that God countenances this false doctrine.

          Fear is the beginning of wisdom in the Old Testament but we are no longer in the Old Covenant.

          We are in the New Covenant of God’s love now.

          But there are a lot of Christian with Old Covenant mindsets.

          I know fear can really mess up your mind that is why this world suffers from so many anxiety and even xenophobia and other paranoid delusional disorders. Sometimes extreme paranoia promotes an outgroup versus an ingroup mentality like xenophobia which is linked to racism.
          This fear doctrine probably harms Christians more than it helps them.

          That is why we need to grow out of this fear doctrine. It is the old natural mindset and interpretation but mature Christians have the mind of Christ now and that is a fearless mind.

          Fear will stunt your mental growth and make you mentally ill if you let it dominate your thoughtlife so perfect love casts out fear.

          We are not living in the Old Testament times any more and God did give us a new nature.

          2 Tim. 1:7
          For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

          Some people report
          psychological problems from the eternal torment doctrine so this doctrine is a false plant from someone and not a godly doctrine.

          You see what the scriptures say. God does not give us a spirit of fear but a lot of people claiming to serve God are communicating a false fear doctrine to people and that lie started a long time ago in the papacy.

          You can study the scriptures Toby. Sure most people will need guidance but there is nothing stopping a person from exceeding his teachers in spiritual knowledge if possible. Sometimes it is not possible. Some people are too far ahead.

          But the important thing is you end up a lover and not a hater because all this knowledge is just a stepping stone into transformation.

          1 Corinthians 13 Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

          13 If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
          2 and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;
          3 and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.
          4 The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up,
          5 doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil,
          6 rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
          7 all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.
          8 The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;
          9 for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;
          10 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.
          11 When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;
          12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
          13 and now there doth remain faith, hope, love — these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.

          A love for humanity is very important. All you have to do is open a history book to see what the haters have done and are doing to this world.

          That is why Christ brings division. He separates and makes holy the lovers from the fear mongering haters.

          That is why being a Christian requires self dedication and monitoring.

          People like to drag other people trying to be godly down to their level instead of examining themselves and their own heart motives.

          Who is going to teach you to examine the world and yourself better than God?

          Nobody. So read the Book and don’t be afraid to use your own mind to
          get to the truth of a matter. It is why God gave you a mind. To use it for yourself free of coercion.

          Reply
          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “We aren’t supposed to be arguing the scriptures with other Christians.”
            .
            Then tell me why you continue to argue. You have shown ZERO evidence that “universalism” is true. Yet you continue to espouse that it is. Everything you attempt to use you use OUT OF CONTEXT or it is REFUTED in the very same passage a few verses later.
            .
            Show a single verse that shows anyone who gets thrown into the lake of fire as EVER getting out for any reason or let it go. “Universalism” is NOT Scriptual. SO JUST STOP.

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Some people report
            psychological problems from the eternal torment doctrine so this doctrine is a false plant from someone and not a godly doctrine.”
            .
            Do you seriously have any CLUE as to what you are talking about???????????????

          • Mark Heavlin says:

            “Apologists purport to be defending the Gospel and they all agree God loves everyone then they accept this eternal torment lie that makes God look like He only chooses to love certain people. That is the result of eternal torment and free will.
            But you can’t be a repentant Christian unless God gives you the gift of repentance so why are these Christians talking about hell at all? They are trying to force people’s wills with a false doctrine but Paul never forced anyone. He sougt to persuade them with God’s love for them.
            I do not believe that God countenances this false doctrine.
            Fear is the beginning of wisdom in the Old Testament but we are no longer in the Old Covenant.
            We are in the New Covenant of God’s love now.
            But there are a lot of Christian with Old Covenant mindsets.”
            .
            And why should I think that you would actually paraphrase a verse any better than you can copy and paste it?
            .
            Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
            .
            Also, explain the following verse to me please:
            .
            Matthew 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

  52. Susan says:

    Matthew 25:41 Young’s Literal Translation
    Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the AGE-DURING that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.

    Matthew 25:41, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible
    Then, will he say unto those also, on his left hand: Depart ye from me, accursed ones! Into the AGE-ABIDING fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and his messengers;

    I have repeatedly pointed out to you Mr. Heavlin that you are not verifying the ancient meaning of certain key words.

    But if you want to remain ignorant to prop up a mistaken doctrine then go ahead. I don’t control you as you do not control me.

    I do not plan on checking any threads on this subject as I have things to do in the near future and have already pointed out numerous sources for people to check if they are curious on this topic.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “But if you want to remain ignorant to prop up a mistaken doctrine then go ahead. I don’t control you as you do not control me.”
      .
      You simply repeating this ten million times does NOT make it true. Just show a single verse from The Bible where anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 ever gets out for any reason. Such a simple request for one so knowledgeable about “universalism” should be easy. This has been the request from the beginning and remains the request now. That you have NOT and can NOT provide a single verse shows that your pet theory is NON-BIBLICAL. So let it go.
      .
      .
      “I do not plan on checking any threads on this subject as I have things to do in the near future and have already pointed out numerous sources for people to check if they are curious on this topic.”
      .
      Promise? Seems I have heard this before; but you can NOT keep your word on even such a simple thing. Any credibility you may have had is long gone.

      Reply
      • Mark Heavlin says:

        “Promise? Seems I have heard this before; but you can NOT keep your word on even such a simple thing. Any credibility you may have had is long gone.”
        .
        See yet another incoherent long winded response yet again below.
        You are one severely confused soul SUSAN.

        Reply
        • Susan says:

          Well goodbye then. I am not talking with you further because I might descend to your level.

          But God is not a bully. He doesn’t have to bully anyone with a fear doctrine. Bullies are usually the biggest cowards and God is no coward.

          You may some day revise your thinking or maybe not.

          Not everyone can make a doctrinal correction when needed and not everyone can change quickly.

          The only one with a fearful, confused mind is you because you keep asking the same pointless question as if it controls all conclusions when it does not.

          I am leaving apologetics because it is full of logical nitwits who always think their personal reasoning must dominate when some people are on a different mental operating system. Some people are intuitive thinkers and God made those people that way. So why does your logic get to dominate and intuitive person. But such poor thinking has been used to discriminate and subjugate women since the dawn of time.

          The Word is given to those who are willing to understand God’s reasoning and no where does it say I have to reason to or tolerate your petty fearful minded conclusion.

          I will think for myself thank you very much and that includes locating the best, most truthful interpretations and I will share it with everyone because God sent us the truth to set us free not sit shackled in a mental fear prison.

          I am sick of the spiritually weak minded and the natural minded people thinking I have to tolerate their devious fear filled lies.

          You couldn’t even check the language explanations.

          So you are not qualified to correct me at all.

          You have to be brace enough to get out of the boat and walk on the water to discover God’s truth.

          Al you did was learn a manmade doctrinal deception and substitute it for the truth.

          You refused correction so you have a heart issue and as a result are wearing blinders that make you reject continuing revelation.

          God hasn’t stopped revealing to people. You have taught yourself to stop receiving it.

          I am tired of spanking you on this board.

          The whole world can see you were too afraid to check the ancient word meanings like bible scholars do.

          I am not a Bible scholar but I am not afraid to sit at their feet and learn until I identify the truth of a matter but you are.

          I am going to choose you over a Bible scholar to listen to?

          Scholars are like judges they all weigh the truth a bit differently.

          I gleaned all the best info from as many thorough workmen as possible before changing my opinion.

          All you did was sit in a pew and let the false prophets feed you the doctrinal lie over and over.

          I am a genuine seeker. You must be a verse quoting pew warmer.

          Sorry you did not have the nerve to put in the work checking the material.
          You might have learned something.

          May His Grace Abound To You!

          Reply
  53. Susan says:

    You are lacking on this subject Heavlin.

    Matthew 19:26, Berean Study Bible

    And Jesus having looked on them, said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    Is God limited to the context of the above verse?

    Or is this verse a contextually sweeping statement about the nature of God?

    You have limited God’s abilities by your own understanding.

    I forget who said it but some people believe in the Big God and some people believe in the little god.

    You believe in the little god limited by man’s free will etc. You can’t even look into the deeper word meanings of the text.

    It could be from a lack of exposure to multiple Christian theologies where you start to compare the ideas to develop a deeper Christian thought process.

    If God can raise someone from the dead then He can raise them from the second death, too.

    Should people be trying to avoid the second death? Yes, of course.

    Everyone should be running for the first resurrection but most people aren’t and not everybody has access to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

    So God just allowed these people with no access to Him through His Word to be born so they could be eternally tormented? How did they exercise free will in any of that?

    You should read Creation’s Jubilee where it discusses the problems that free will doctrine creates. By over focusing on man’s will men start to limit God in their own thinking and make people overly responsible when in fact God is the responsible all powerful parent to the whole world.

    Belief is not a choice. It is the gift of God. Repentance is not a choice. It is the gift of God.

    And you are mistaken criticizing a person for paraphrasing a verse if the person’s heart motive is good.

    God didn’t give us the scriptures to quote them like a mindless zombie. He wants us to hide them in our hearts, meditate on the verses and allow Him to produce change in us.

    So maybe you had better spend some time actually understanding the purpose behind the Word before you quote it.

    And make sure you have properly repented because there could be a lot of unrepentant Christians in Christian ranks.

    Maybe some of the people serving as Inquisition torturers were unrepentant Christians.

    Since you can’t read the hearts of people to tell the repentant Christians from the unrepentant ones you had better start actually trying to learn the Gospel to be able to explain it if you plan on delivering it.

    Or are you defending the Gospel without learning how to deliver it first?

    Being able to explain doctrine demonstrates that you actually tried to master it.

    A heathen can pull a verse out of the Bible. It doesn’t mean he learned or took to heart any of God’s lessons.

    Thanks for reading. I am setting up an apartment right now in a new city, just started a new job and am not feeling the best.

    So you need to read those Christian sources and start meditating/deep thinking for yourself for a change. Remember Mary, she pondered in her heart.

    Logic will only get you so far. Learn to ponder.

    How much can an alternate interpretation really hurt a believer who is a confirmed believer? Christ has those people. The Bible says Christ doesn’t drop people.

    Are you going to trust God’s character and hand like a little child or let people upset you with their false fear doctrines they are so fluent at communicating?

    You can check the ancient word meanings. What is stopping you? But you can’t check the heart motives of the translators.

    So it really does come down to who you think God is and He told us He is love. To trust in Him and His promises and that His love doesn’t fail.

    So I don’t believe God will fail anybody. They fail Him. They fail themselves, too. But He won’t fail. He has already expressed His intent to save the
    world and has in fact done it.

    But we can dispute that by a faulty or limited understanding.

    Colossians 2:15, Berean Study Bible
    And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross

    Jesus came to receive the scepter in his first visit. At the Second Coming he is coming to receive his birthright which is the whole creation. He will not be satisfied with a tiny fraction of humanity. He is reconciling and receiving the whole creation.

    Thanks for reading and God Bless. I really am too busy to debate.

    Besides studying is the superior method to learning about God, His will and His plan.

    Reply
  54. Susan says:

    MARK HEAVLIN
    April 25, 2018 at 12:47 am
    “Each is saved in his own order.”
    .
    I have already shown elsewhere that yet again you are taking Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT. This passage deals with the order of resurrection of everyone. It does NOT deal with “universalism” – all people being saved.
    .
    My quote from above : “First Corinthian’s 15: 21-26 – Deals with the “order of resurrection” of all people. It does NOT deal with “Eternal Torment vs. Reconciliation”. It also does NOT deal with Judgement at the end of time.”

    I hope someone is reading and putting the scriptures together for themselves because the above is just bunk. Context does not control everything because some doctrines are assembled from multiple passages from multiple books of the Bible.

    Salvation is a work that spans ages and there are more ages to come and there is more than 1 resurrection.

    And don’t criticize me for not proofreading again Heavlin.

    Who are you to keep a record of wrongs on people’s petty errors?

    An accurate mental picture about resurrection comes from multiple places in the Bible so everyone can check the whole Bible himself if he is unable to locate a good scholarly work on it.

    It would probably be better if each person arrived at his own Scriptural understanding. That’s how you guard against poor theology and false prophet errors by seeking to know as much as possible yourself but it is a big and complicated subject.

    Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “I hope someone is reading and putting the scriptures together for themselves because the above is just bunk.”
      .
      The commentaries on these verse strongly refute your contention that theses verses have anything to do with your pet theory of “universalism”. They deal with the “order of resurrection” and nothing more.
      .
      .
      “Context does not control everything because some doctrines are assembled from multiple passages from multiple books of the Bible.”
      .
      CONTEXT certainly does control everything because The Scripture of The Holy Bible is THE WORD OF GOD and is inerrant and can NOT be broken therefore it can NOT contradict itself. So while you are correct that some doctrines may be assembled from multiple passages throughout The Bible; at the same time if said doctrine contradicts any part of The Bible then it is by definition FALSE.
      .
      .
      “And don’t criticize me for not proofreading again Heavlin.
      Who are you to keep a record of wrongs on people’s petty errors?”
      .
      That you continue to embarrass yourself is on you. I only meant to suggest that you would NOT look so incompetent if you would actually proof read before you hit the SUBMIT button. If you think that misquoting The Bible and using verses OUT OF CONTEXT are petty then you are only fooling yourself.
      .
      .
      “Salvation is a work that spans ages and there are more ages to come and there is more than 1 resurrection.”
      .
      Salvation for any single individual is NOT a work that spans ages. I suggest you go and read John Chapter 3 in its’ entirety until you actually understand it. You should FOCUS specifically on the meaning of verses 18 and 36. And after you understand them move onto Hebrews Chapter 9 verses 26 & 27.
      .
      Hebrews 9:26-27 26 Otherwise, He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,
      .
      .
      “It would probably be better if each person arrived at his own Scriptural understanding. That’s how you guard against poor theology and false prophet errors by seeking to know as much as possible yourself but it is a big and complicated subject.”
      .
      .
      It is only a big and complicated subject if you attempt to use the simple ideas presented in an attempt to twist and warp them into ideas that simply are NOT what was intended.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        Have the last word. I have given up exchanging ideas with people who don’t have the common sense to check the ancient word meanings and lack the ability to change their minds when arriving at a more reasonable conclusion.

        I have discovered after 15 years of trying to promote the Gospel that the people who actually are capable of changing their minds for reasonable reasons are few and far between.

        So keep your rock hard opinion and have the last word.

        I gave up on changing your mind two weeks ago and I am posting for others who may be reading who can still reason to a reasonable conclusion.

        Eternal torment is not a reasonable punishment from a forgiving God so I know it is a false interpretation of men and is continuing to be upheld because a lot of men are too afraid to question the general understanding.

        I do not care for the solidarity of Christianity if it misrepresents the character of God.

        Have the last word.

        Reply
    • Mark Heavlin says:

      “SUSAN says:
      May 1, 2018 at 7:46 am
      Have the last word.”
      .
      In English we have a word for people who can NOT keep their word. That you continue only proves the true nature of why you post long confusing comments here.

      Reply
      • Susan says:

        I am not posting for you. I am posting for people who want to inspect sound biblically based doctrine.

        Some people may want to see sounder biblical doctrine.

        Why would a man’s will be free if his will is compromised and incapacitated by sin?

        Never mind. Consider that rhetorical.

        I am posting for people who want to understand doctrine better and have a better mind picture of things.

        What can man’s free will do that God can’t do better?

        There is not a church around that tells you to depend on your own free will. They always tell believers to trust and depend on God.

        There is an old saying: The safest place is the center of God’s will.

        Reply

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